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$20k bounty was claimed

prettier.io

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Re: $20k bounty was claimed

#281

Post by ufo »

ehutch79 wrote: post #5

I'm looking through the docs, specifically the formatter stuff ( https://biomejs.dev/formatter ), and it feels like all the examples are backwards? Am I missing stuff?

Those diffs are rare corner cases where the input is invalid Javascript. Prettier's parser is permissive and emits beautifully indented nonsense (which is arguably a bug in prettier). For example, in the original program there is a "private public" but the prettier output in red only says "private". Biome decided that in these cases it should not touch the indentation at all. The output is indented exactly the same as the input. The concern is that if you reindent something that you don't understand, it might break it. https://github.com/biomejs/biome/issues/739

Re: $20k bounty was claimed

#282

Post by varispeed »

twodave wrote: post #173
wentin wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why not set a bounty to improve Prettier instead of building a competing project just to increase the motivation to improve Prettier? There are three reasons, I think: 1. Writing a rust compiler is separate from prettier project because of its nature. Prettier is not written in Rust, and Rust has proven to be a robust option to write a formatter, so the goal really is to write a formatter in Rust itself, and it can…

I came here to say that $200/hour is only "extremely conservative" in very few and small geographic parts of the world. Where I'm from (in a large city in the US) this number would be described as extravagant. I've charged $200 or more on only one occasion myself, and it was a very short-term arrangement.

The problem is that many individual freelancers look at their work from an employee perspective, not from a business perspective. From an employee perspective $200/hour may seem extravagant, but from business perspective it is nothing.

So if you hire an agency to perform a contract, they'll bill you $2000 per day and send you their employee who makes $100 an hour. Agency pockets the $1200 (it's a simplification, but should paint the picture).

Freelancer and agency both run the same business model. If you think like employee and charge extravagantly less, you will never grow.

You should typically charge enough, so that for any given project you could hire an employee to do the work, while you look for new leads or you can keep the money in the company and do the work yourself until you amass enough capital to move up the business ladder.

Re: $20k bounty was claimed

#283

Post by jihiggins »

wredue wrote: post #220
parasubvert wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm from a large city (but not the largest) in Canada and $200/hour or higher is common for high end devs, architects, and project managers. I charged $200/hour twenty years ago. These days I'd charge $250-300/hour if I was a contractor. It is not extravagant in most of North America, but again, it is a rate for higher end talent. I have not charged less than $150/hour since the 90s. I once had some contractors in my…

I’ll second this that even in Canada, which has quite low tech pay, the lower end of quality dev work is $180/hr. Most of us managing contractors wouldn’t blink twice at $200/hr. Many of the bills are much higher.

where are you finding these rates at? i have rarely seen anything even passing $100/hr in canada, contract or not

Re: $20k bounty was claimed

#284

Post by ncallaway »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #189
butterlesstoast wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Adding this for data. I charge $500 an hour for contracting. It's gotta be at least that as it's costing time I would otherwise spend with my family. Family time / time away from my core job is incredibly valuable.

For said data... does anyone actually pay that? I mean if you don't get hired for that amount you've got tons of family time so I guess it works? What I'm trying to say, I don't see the correlation between having a huge hourly rate vs family time. 40 hours a week of work is still 40 hours regardless of how much you're paid.

I mean, if you work 20 hours a week, then you don't have 40 hours a week of work

Re: $20k bounty was claimed

#285

Post by 1letterunixname »

pigeonhole123 wrote: post #30
smnscu wrote: post #23

I feel like people complaining about Prettier being "heavily opinionated" are missing the point. Perhaps I'm biased by my decade of using Go, but not having to worry about superfluous stylistic choices is a welcome reduction in cognitive load. (Up to a point I guess, e.g. I'd never put up with K&R-style newline opening brackets).

Prettier is very opinionated about line length which gofmt isn't. That's the only complaint I have and it's bad enough I just refuse to use it. Add one character to a line and enjoy a ten-line diff. Edit: See a contrived example of something gofmt doesn't touch (the behavior I want): https://go.dev/play/p/cKMKnFwT8tq

Line length with modern toolchains is too often stylistic bikeshedding with awkward limits stuck in 1975 cargo culted from the VT52. My external monitor can legibly display 637 x 81 while my laptop does 217 x 63. The largest barely legible terminals with tiny fonts are 3x the size.

Around 100 is a sane minimum while 160 is a sensible upper limit. There's no specific limit other than to prevent poor coding technique, illegible code, or inclusions of generated or minified atrocities.

Re: $20k bounty was claimed

#286

Post by nijave »

dewey wrote: post #8

> One question you are probably wondering is why would the Prettier team fund another project!? In practice, Prettier has been the dominant code formatter for JavaScript and as a result of a lack of competition, there has been little incentive to push on performance and fix various edge cases. I was indeed wondering that but the answer doesn't really answer the question for me. Why not set a bounty to improve Prettie…

I think there's some merit in creating a fresh solution with little or no bias from the original. Trying to adapt an existing codebase is limited by the existing applications architecture and how much you can change without breaking everything

Re: $20k bounty was claimed

#287

Post by zeroonetwothree »

nicoburns wrote: post #132
atom_arranger wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What should Prettier should do in this case? I think we can all agree there should be a line length limit, it has to enforce it eventually. You could say “it’s just a couple more characters” until the line is 200 characters long. Semantic diff is maybe the solution.

It should put more weight on the length that the author has original authored it as. So between "always break" and "always expand" there should be an area of "leave it however it already is".

Prettier needs to be consistent regardless of the original input. Otherwise it won’t really work well.

Re: $20k bounty was claimed

#288

Post by tmm84 »

This is something that really got me thinking about how to make my own prettier from scratch because I thought it was interesting. Needless to say, having looked at the “tests” for prettier I was kind of lost because I was trying to reverse engineer from the tests. What I saw was the format tests are auto generated and have if statements in them. If you’re a unit test stickler then seeing an if statement in a test should be a smell. The hardest part was trying to get the why behind each test. No explanation is in the test but I’ll bet it’s in the docs, source code or whatever cloud chat community.

Also, I had to check the winning implementation just for sanity’s sake. It is older than a week or two. Still, my hats off to them for being able to meet the compatibility mark and get the cash.

Re: $20k bounty was claimed

#289

Post by gmgmgmgmgm »

dewey wrote: post #8

> One question you are probably wondering is why would the Prettier team fund another project!? In practice, Prettier has been the dominant code formatter for JavaScript and as a result of a lack of competition, there has been little incentive to push on performance and fix various edge cases. I was indeed wondering that but the answer doesn't really answer the question for me. Why not set a bounty to improve Prettie…

Yes, I'm sure rust is amazing but, Just a guess that the number of programmers that can contribute to a rust project is probably 3-4 orders of magnitude less than the number of programmers that can contribute to a JavaScript project. Well, maybe if you subtract all the "competent enough to a submit a coherent pull request" programmers the number is only 2-3 orders of magnitude?

Basically I'd assume, if a project targeted at JS, switched to rust, the number of useful pull requests would be 50-100x less.

I wonder if anyone has any data on that (and similar projects re-written in C++ or Go etc...).

Re: $20k bounty was claimed

#290

Post by adam_arthur »

digging wrote: post #101
harimau777 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that style matters and therefore those debates matter. Just because something isn't important to the developers that made Prettier doesn't mean that it's not important to the productivity of other developers.

> The problem is that style matters and therefore those debates matter. Does it? IME/O, styling only matters up until the point that it is consistent and reasonable. And I'm saying this as someone who used to want to debate and micromanage a lot of formatting standards in my projects. Ego is removed from the equation (unless you're the one trying to introduce Prettier to a reluctant team), and without ego, the debate…

Is 6pt font easier to read than 12pt font? Are all style choices equivalent from first principles?

No, not really. Many of the decisions prettier makes are quite objectively bad for readability from first principles (e.g. breaking up lines where the RHS isn't relevant to most readers, left shifting RHS of assignments when the implementation details are less important than the abstraction over them).

I am totally in favor of a universal formatter, but at least justify the design decisions being made. Prettier formatting choices are often very lackluster and hard to defend objectively.

It will be replaced by something better eventually

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