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$20k bounty was claimed

prettier.io

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Re: $20k bounty was claimed

#211

Post by Cthulhu_ »

lainga wrote: post #70
SamBam wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not really an issue if you do a one-time Prettification commit, and then stick to Prettifying automatically thereafter. Then you won't ever see line-width changes mixed in with functional changes. Isn't this an issue with every linter? At some point you're going to have to decide what to do with old code that doesn't match the new style rules.

Sure you will. Whoops, my regex got too long and now the diff is - filter: /\.(jimmy|jimbo|jeremiad)$/ + filter: + /\.(jimmy|jimbo|jeremiad|james)$/ . And it's not clear where the change is. GP's article has an example of that in a linked tweet.

Is that down to the formatter - which you've configured to enforce a certain line length (https://prettier.io/docs/en/options.html#print-width) - or the diff visualiser that doesn't show a difference between whitespace and other changes?

Re: $20k bounty was claimed

#212

Post by Cannabat »

The_Colonel wrote: post #175
shepherdjerred wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like the others said, Prettier isn't foundational. That said, it brings in _much_ more value than $1.5k/mo. It has eliminated styling arguments on teams that adopt it. The amount of time saved in PRs/reduction of bikeshedding is very valuable.

Meh, most devs I've met can format code better than Prettier. Having a consistent set of rules sounds alluring at first, but the issue is that mechanical application is, well, mechanical and therefore dumb. My personal impression is that the code style bike shedding is a sign of team immaturity. In the more mature teams (composed of more mature persons), I haven't really seen formatting bike shedding.

Those devs _can_, but why should they? Code formatting takes a lot of time - it doesn't matter how skilled of a dev you are - you can only accurately and so fast.

But the big win for code formatters is fewer decisions. Decision fatigue is real.

What's wrong with the application of e.g. Prettier? Is it wrong enough that it's worth your time to manually format however many thousands of LOC, making countless micro decisions along the way?

Re: $20k bounty was claimed

#213

Post by Cthulhu_ »

fenomas wrote: post #79
nicoburns wrote: post #10

Speed is always welcome, but I just wish prettier was a little less opinionated. Specifically around line length, it will just not leave my formatting alone. I find prettier formatted code much less readable than unformatted code, and this isn't a problem I have with other code formatters like rustfmt.

I think the real issue with prettier is that it's almost become a de facto standard. E.g. personally I don't like it at all , but do like Svelte, and Svelte's official (and AFAIK only) formatter uses prettier. Hence I use prettier for Svelte, and ditto for a few other things. So the whole "extremely opinionated, if you want configuration go somewhere else" is great in principle, when people are choosing to use the to…

To use the Go language's formatter and a saying, "Gofmt's style is no one's favorite, yet gofmt is everyone's favorite." That is, you may not like the style, but it's preferable over having no tool ensuring consistent style.

Re: $20k bounty was claimed

#214

Post by slimsag »

syrusakbary wrote: post #200
slimsag wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The parent poster (syrusakbary) is the CEO of Wasmer and trying to push WASIX, a quasi-proprietary 'open standard' while it seems the rest of the WASM ecosystem is in fact moving to WASI preview 2 [0] [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37545670

I think you may be a bit confused on what's the purpose behind WASIX, Stephen. And you are mistakenly polarizing between two very valid options for different use cases. We are not trying to push WASIX, we are trying to move forward sockets, threads, subprocesses so they can run fully in Wasm environments. And WASIX is the solution to that problem. WASI Preview 2 on the other hand seems to be focused on other set of p…

According to their roadmap, WASI preview 2 will have threads and sockets.

So, in light of that, what is the reason for diverging from WASI and creating WASIX?

Re: $20k bounty was claimed

#215

Post by Vinnl »

candiddevmike wrote: post #16

I'm still salty that all my eslint plugins decided to remove perfectly fine linters in lieu of Prettier. I find Prettier to be way too heavy handed and hard to reason about, and yet another tool that I never asked for...

In what cases are you "reasoning about" Prettier? I can only think of the occasional issue with merge conflicts, perhaps.

Re: $20k bounty was claimed

#216

Post by mvdtnz »

j1elo wrote: post #63
thenbe wrote: post #33

While it's always great to see performance gains, my largest pain point with prettier was never performance. Instead my only gripe with prettier is the "line wrapping noise" it creates, illustrated here by Anthony Fu: https://antfu.me/posts/why-not-prettier#the-line-wrapping-no... Would it be realistic to expect a solution for this issue now that "prettier needs to step up it's game"?

I'd rather have a strict line length limit, than having my coworker creating objects in lines 150 or 180 chars long. So we'd end up discussing what is the best choice. I bet I'd also end up discussing those things with Anthony Fu. If the limit is 80, then the limit is 80 , not 81. Come Prettier. No more discussions. I definitely buy the tiny amount of "noise" it brings, in exchange for freeing me from an immense amou…

I understand not wanting to bike shed on the actual number but I refuse to accept 80. I simply do not agree that the greybeards with 70s technology got it figured out perfectly in their day and nothing has changed.

Re: $20k bounty was claimed

#218

Post by parasubvert »

twodave wrote: post #173
wentin wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why not set a bounty to improve Prettier instead of building a competing project just to increase the motivation to improve Prettier? There are three reasons, I think: 1. Writing a rust compiler is separate from prettier project because of its nature. Prettier is not written in Rust, and Rust has proven to be a robust option to write a formatter, so the goal really is to write a formatter in Rust itself, and it can…

I came here to say that $200/hour is only "extremely conservative" in very few and small geographic parts of the world. Where I'm from (in a large city in the US) this number would be described as extravagant. I've charged $200 or more on only one occasion myself, and it was a very short-term arrangement.

I'm from a large city (but not the largest) in Canada and $200/hour or higher is common for high end devs, architects, and project managers. I charged $200/hour twenty years ago. These days I'd charge $250-300/hour if I was a contractor. It is not extravagant in most of North America, but again, it is a rate for higher end talent. I have not charged less than $150/hour since the 90s.

I once had some contractors in my team that were paid $500/hour due to vendor markup. I consider that extravagant.

Re: $20k bounty was claimed

#219

Post by n42 »

syrusakbary wrote: post #186
n42 wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's fine to be forthcoming about the financial interests of your projects – this is Hacker News, after all. We live on VC. The tone of your previous comment suggests there is none. I find it hard to believe that anything you would spend your company's time on would not push the mission of the company forward. This creates a financial incentive.

I'll address the first non-clickbait question and try to provide some insight, as I think you might be a bit confused on how COSS startups work. We don't plan to monetize WASIX. WASIX is just an enabler to allow any program compile to WebAssembly. If other open-source technology existed and fulfilled what we want to accomplish is more than certain we would not have created WASIX. In our case, the community was asking…

Wasmer is a VC company building a platform that depends on the existence of these platform APIs – sockets, threads, forking, etc. They have a vested interest in the existence of these APIs, and the health of the developer ecosystem, to stay alive. From here, it kind of seems like the fundamental foundation of everything Wasmer is building.

Meanwhile, Bytecode Alliance is a registered non-profit with many large corporate backers. They are building out the WASI standard with careful due diligence to learn from and avoid the mistakes we have found in POSIX. BCA has their own financial incentives, and they are aligned differently than yours.

BCA ultimately is moving slower than works for Wasmer. So I guess you were faced with three options: A) wait for BCA, and do nothing B) work with BCA and push it forward C) fork it and do it yourself.

So you chose to fork it and reimplement POSIX with all its warts. I assume because this applies pressure to the community (candidly, a good thing) while letting you make progress immediately.

Where I, and I assume others, have issue with all of this is:

You have chosen a name that has created confusion in an already confusing space.

You have whitewashed it by promoting it as a new open standard, but the controlling entity realllyy is just Wasmer[0].

You have demonstrated through your actions a complete lack of willingness to work with people in the community, preferring to strong-arm with veiled threats[1] or perverting incentives financially[2].

The issue isn't with WASIX, but with you and your actions. I have no confidence in your ability to lead this community forward in a way that has my (our) interests ahead of your company's.

  [0]: https://github.com/wasix-org/wasix-governance-meeting-notes/blob/5135516d091d1bc3810677ea2cc755a67e10c669/meeting-notes-27-07-2023.md#meeting-attendees
  [1]: https://github.com/bytecodealliance/wit-bindgen/issues/306
  [2]: https://github.com/ziglang/zig/issues/17115

Re: $20k bounty was claimed

#220

Post by wredue »

parasubvert wrote: post #218
twodave wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I came here to say that $200/hour is only "extremely conservative" in very few and small geographic parts of the world. Where I'm from (in a large city in the US) this number would be described as extravagant. I've charged $200 or more on only one occasion myself, and it was a very short-term arrangement.

I'm from a large city (but not the largest) in Canada and $200/hour or higher is common for high end devs, architects, and project managers. I charged $200/hour twenty years ago. These days I'd charge $250-300/hour if I was a contractor. It is not extravagant in most of North America, but again, it is a rate for higher end talent. I have not charged less than $150/hour since the 90s. I once had some contractors in my…

I’ll second this that even in Canada, which has quite low tech pay, the lower end of quality dev work is $180/hr. Most of us managing contractors wouldn’t blink twice at $200/hr. Many of the bills are much higher.
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