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Email is not broken: It’s a framework, not an application

blog.killtheradio.net

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Re: Email is not broken: It’s a framework, not an application

#41
post #13

The bottom line for me is: I hate email. It might be a great framework and all, but I dread opening up gmail. I know it's going to be full of shit I don't care about, I know there's going to be an unsurmountable, unsorted, confusing, library of old emails. Further, if i'm expecting an email, it could be anywhere! Bulk? Spam? Inbox? But why then do i love getting an sms? Where's the difference? The speed? The quality?…

The part that is broken is between the chair and the keyboard.

There are simple ways to prevent junk email to get to you. I open my gmail acount every day and I read pretty much every email I get. I get nearly zero spam/trash. Perhaps you shouldn't sign up for a ton of services that polute your mailbox?

Re: Email is not broken: It’s a framework, not an application

#42
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Email can be secured and authenticated with GPG and perhaps more people should consider doing this. > Doesn't work unless you teach people about security, which is difficult. Simple, transparent security is hard. But this is again a UI problem, not a failing of email. Think about this for a second: let's say Google decided that it was going to transparently PGP-sign all GMail users' emails. Now GMail knows that an…

Gmail etc. could have provided encryption and authentication if they wanted to. Unfortunately they don't want to because their business model(s) rely on reading our emails.

Not at all relevant to my point. I'm talking about signing messages, not encrypting them. Authenticating messages is completely orthogonal to encryption and whether or not Google can read your mail.

Re: Email is not broken: It’s a framework, not an application

#43
post #36

> You send a message and it either goes where it’s supposed to, or you get an error message back. I wonder how large percentage of messages are dropped silently by services like GMail as a spam prevention measure. I bet it's non-zero. > It’s simple. How many email related RFCs are out there? And how many additional non-standardized common practices there are? How many pitfalls imposed by common legacy software? Email…

> I wonder how large percentage of messages are dropped silently by services like GMail as a spam prevention measure. I bet it's non-zero.

Nobody forces you to use GMail. There are other mailservers with a much more sane behavior. For example, the mail server I use either accepts a mail, or doesn't accept it (when it looks like spam). It might be possible that a certain percentage of mails is misclassified, but in that cases the sender receives a confirmation.

Re: Email is not broken: It’s a framework, not an application

#44
post #32
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Email can be secured and authenticated with GPG and perhaps more people should consider doing this. > Doesn't work unless you teach people about security, which is difficult. Simple, transparent security is hard. But this is again a UI problem, not a failing of email. Think about this for a second: let's say Google decided that it was going to transparently PGP-sign all GMail users' emails. Now GMail knows that an…

Take a look at DMARC. [1] The webpage is horribly ugly, but essentially, it allows a domain to declare that all their outgoing mail are DKIM-signed and SPF-passed. Paypal and eBay do this. Gmail filters out any DKIM-fail or SPF-fail mails purporting to be from @paypal.com and sends it to spam, with 100% accuracy . Gmail also puts the little 'key' icon next to the sender name, but that's not really important, the poin…

IMO this looks overly complicated, especially as SPF works fine. The only problem with SPF right now is that many receivers (including) GMail don't abide to the specification. If there's an "-all" clause at the end this implies that you must not accept mails from other mail servers than the ones allowed. If you still do - your fault - but don't complain that your users receive mails with faked sender addresses.

Re: Email is not broken: It’s a framework, not an application

#45

A-min. The problem is that the way we're using e-mails has changed, but the e-mail is still a good concept. I would keep it ASCII (ok, maybe UTF) and screw everything else. It was supposed to work like that and it does it just fine. The other note is that the communication is changing. E-mails are less and less like a full mail message, and more SMS-like, almost real-time, and packed with multimedia content. I think…

> and more SMS-like, almost real-time, and packed with multimedia content

Unfortunately yes.

Just a decade ago we made fun of people sending mails with HTML content because they didn't know better. The same goes for correct email quoting. Nowdays this seems to be commonly accepted - even by people who call themselves "hackers". The only difference is that the omnipresent @hotmail.com has been replaced by @gmail.com.

Re: Email is not broken: It’s a framework, not an application

#46

This post seems a little off. I agree that the fundamental concept's not broken, but why link to the error message problem? He talks about technical shortcomings of email but then just launches into saying that it's not todos? So what about the technical problems? The crappy security, the poor error messages, that the senders email gets dumped straight to spam without any notification? What about crappy email threadi…

>So what about the technical problems? The crappy security, the poor error messages, that the senders email gets dumped straight to spam without any notification? What about crappy email threading that requires people to send the entire post back in the reply? That if a normal person wants to send emails themselves it's a colossal undertaking that's better farmed out?

All these are issues with email clients and not email itself.

You want security? Encrypt your emails before sending them.

Poor error messages? The computer understands the error code its getting. It's your client that's not showing you a layman understandable error message.

Sender's email dumped straight to spam without notification? Duh, hello, it was sent to Spam because your client classified it as spam (and more often than not, that classification was right). Do you want to get a notification for every email that lands up in your spam folder?

Email, threading works pretty fine in gmail, so I suppose that again is a client problem.

And normal people send and recieve emails daily. Very rarely does a 'normal person' send bulk emails, and if you wish to frequently send bulk emails and not get caught up in spam filters, then you will have to work a bit towards it. However, again this is not a problem with email. It's a problem with the spam filters of service providers.

What I am trying to say here is that the author's point is simply that email is very good at what it does. The issues with email are all in the way the email is handled, and not in email as a technology itself.

Re: Email is not broken: It’s a framework, not an application

#47
post #43
post #36

> You send a message and it either goes where it’s supposed to, or you get an error message back. I wonder how large percentage of messages are dropped silently by services like GMail as a spam prevention measure. I bet it's non-zero. > It’s simple. How many email related RFCs are out there? And how many additional non-standardized common practices there are? How many pitfalls imposed by common legacy software? Email…

> I wonder how large percentage of messages are dropped silently by services like GMail as a spam prevention measure. I bet it's non-zero. Nobody forces you to use GMail. There are other mailservers with a much more sane behavior. For example, the mail server I use either accepts a mail, or doesn't accept it (when it looks like spam). It might be possible that a certain percentage of mails is misclassified, but in th…

I can't choose what service my recipients use.

edit: I might add that spam backscatter is a significant issue (which stems from fundamental problems in email), and thus not sending bounce messages is fairly sane too.

Re: Email is not broken: It’s a framework, not an application

#48
post #31
post #12

Couldn't upvote this more. I am fed up with posts telling me email is broken and a new disruptive tech will be the cure. Email is an open protocol, decentralized, providing optional security. Shortcomings—or rather call them additional requirements—can be solved with tools keeping email focussed on async text-based communication. Want to send large files? Dropbox. Want more automation? Improve the client side and/or…

Email was not designed to be used the way we use it now. ...my inbox is a todo list, and email is the way things get onto it. But it is a disastrously bad todo list. ...it seems unlikely that people in 100 years will still be living in the same email hell we do now. And if email is going to get replaced eventually, why not now? ...some of the most powerful people are all at the mercy of email too. [1] Your posts remi…

> Email was not designed to be used the way we use it now. ...my inbox is a todo list

So we should not use email as a TODO list, but keep a separate TODO list. Email is not broken, it's just the wrong tool for keeping TODO lists.

I would never have thought of (mis)using email for a TODO list, and I'm astonished to read from various famous people (not just pg) that they're seriously doing that. Maybe this is a typical mistake of Internet beginners, but why are so many experienced and very busy people doing such a huge organizational mistake, every day?

There are lots of tools for keeping a TODO list. For my personal purposes, a plain text file works flawlessly. [1] Bigger organizations use various forms of issue trackers, or use a simple Wiki to simulate an issue tracker.

[1] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3830247

Re: Email is not broken: It’s a framework, not an application

#49

This post seems a little off. I agree that the fundamental concept's not broken, but why link to the error message problem? He talks about technical shortcomings of email but then just launches into saying that it's not todos? So what about the technical problems? The crappy security, the poor error messages, that the senders email gets dumped straight to spam without any notification? What about crappy email threadi…

>So what about the technical problems? The crappy security, the poor error messages, that the senders email gets dumped straight to spam without any notification? What about crappy email threading that requires people to send the entire post back in the reply? That if a normal person wants to send emails themselves it's a colossal undertaking that's better farmed out? All these are issues with email clients and not e…

Email threading has worked for longer than I care to remember in mutt, for whatever it's worth :)

Re: Email is not broken: It’s a framework, not an application

#50
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought I was the only one who got frustrated with sexual innuendo peppered blog posts or those with swear words ever other sentence.

Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks. It amused me and made the post more entertaining for me to read, thus holding my attention better. Yes, I probably do have the sense of humor of a 12-year-old, but that's immaterial.

I don't agree with you. We should be establishing a polite ettiquette
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