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PCSX2 Disables Wayland Support

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Re: PCSX2 Disables Wayland Support

#171

Post by phendrenad2 »

mcpackieh wrote: post #164
devit wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's obviously the only correct approach. The concept of "window position on screen" makes no sense, since a compositor is allowed to display windows arbitrarily, and doesn't necessarily display them as 2D rectangles (for instance, they could be displayed in a VR environment at arbitrary 3D positions, or they could be warped arbitrarily, etc.). Also, the window layout belongs to the user and compositor and it would…

> The concept of "window position on screen" makes no sense, since a compositor is allowed to display windows arbitrarily, and doesn't necessarily display them as 2D rectangles (for instance, they could be displayed in a VR environment at arbitrary 3D positions, or they could be warped arbitrarily, etc.). This is a poorly thought out objection (sounds more like a rationalization), neatly addressed here: https://gitla…

Seems like the main reason to let apps know the absolute positions of their windows is for running Windows apps in WINE, and legacy proprietary Linux apps that were meant to work on X11. Wayland devs want a perfect, elegant solution, but they're just sticking their heads in the sand and hoping that reality will go away.

Re: PCSX2 Disables Wayland Support

#172

Post by brnt »

caslon wrote: post #132
reisse wrote: post #33

Quoting @stenzek > But Wayland is just broken, and everyone would rather sit around arguing with each other instead of actually addressing the design flaws. > It's not the first time such a proposal has been put forward. Something that developers need for their applications to work properly on WL (particularly multi-window applications), and it gets vetoed. Every other OS manages this fine. But apparently we're in th…

Wayland already works, and is great for a lot of use cases; it's the default on distributions like Fedora, and has been for a while. It has nice things. For 90% of users, it's better than X in most ways that matter. Similar, but much less catastrophic, to how Android isn't great for blind users, or people who want to do low-latency audio production, Wayland is actually great for most users, despite not appealing to e…

> For 90% of users, it's better than X in most ways that matter.

I sincerely doubt this. The project hasn't organised much in the way of receiving user reports, and anyone with a negative one has experienced various levels of hostility: you are usually suspected of user error.

The distro's that have switched also target devs/enthusiasts, who tend to have a particular subset of all possible hardware which leads to biased impressions.

I think many don't quite understand that much of the hairyness in Xorg is necessary: it's the hardware that dictates the requirement of those 1001 little workaround. A clean slate doesn't mean the slate can stay clean: you either choose to support all of those unperfect devices, device-combos, user requests, or, and that seems to be what happened, you focus on a narrow happy path (for the kind of people the devs themselves see) and leave it at that. I don't mins that, but I do mind anyone arguing Wayland should be or is going to replace anything; look at the negative user reports. It's nowhere near there.

Re: PCSX2 Disables Wayland Support

#173

Post by erinnh »

LtWorf wrote: post #118
saghm wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not ever having to touch Xorg config files to get things working is pretty big advantage to me at least.

So let me know how do you write 5 languages properly…

Are you talking about changing keymaps or just different keymaps?

The last you setup in your DE and the first you use xkb as before. (Or at least that’s how I did it before)

Re: PCSX2 Disables Wayland Support

#174

Post by erinnh »

LtWorf wrote: post #115
Arnavion wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Not losing all the work every time your windows manager crashes https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37509703 >remapping keys >Use xinput to change parameters of their input devices (libinput dropped most configuration options present with evdev) Up to the compositor. >Global shortcuts Also up to the compositor. Was added to xdp in https://github.com/flatpak/xdg-desktop-portal/blob/main/data... so it's up to the com…

> Up to the compositor. > Also up to the compositor. Exactly my point! Right there. Thanks.

What’s your point? You didn’t make it.

Before you said that your point was that people tell you you aren’t supposed to do those things. But you are able to remap your keys.

Remapping keys has been possible in Wayland for quite a while in any compositor I used. (KDE, Gnome, Sway)

Re: PCSX2 Disables Wayland Support

#175

Post by tommiegannert »

caslon wrote: post #132
reisse wrote: post #33

Quoting @stenzek > But Wayland is just broken, and everyone would rather sit around arguing with each other instead of actually addressing the design flaws. > It's not the first time such a proposal has been put forward. Something that developers need for their applications to work properly on WL (particularly multi-window applications), and it gets vetoed. Every other OS manages this fine. But apparently we're in th…

Wayland already works, and is great for a lot of use cases; it's the default on distributions like Fedora, and has been for a while. It has nice things. For 90% of users, it's better than X in most ways that matter. Similar, but much less catastrophic, to how Android isn't great for blind users, or people who want to do low-latency audio production, Wayland is actually great for most users, despite not appealing to e…

> Wayland already works, and is great for a lot of use cases;

> I exclusively use X11 because of an extremely niche use case, and I can admit that Wayland is perfectly fine for 99% of things anyone wants to do with a computer. It's not a square wheel at all.

This had me thinking about digital NIMBYism. Suggest others do one thing, while you do the opposite, because your reasons make sense.

You still haven't addressed PCSX2's, or anyone else's, concrete reasons.

Re: PCSX2 Disables Wayland Support

#176

Post by LtWorf »

erinnh wrote: post #174
LtWorf wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Up to the compositor. > Also up to the compositor. Exactly my point! Right there. Thanks.

What’s your point? You didn’t make it. Before you said that your point was that people tell you you aren’t supposed to do those things. But you are able to remap your keys. Remapping keys has been possible in Wayland for quite a while in any compositor I used. (KDE, Gnome, Sway)

Not arbitrary remapping of any key.

Re: PCSX2 Disables Wayland Support

#177

Post by LtWorf »

erinnh wrote: post #173
LtWorf wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So let me know how do you write 5 languages properly…

Are you talking about changing keymaps or just different keymaps? The last you setup in your DE and the first you use xkb as before. (Or at least that’s how I did it before)

I am not trying to change layout, no.

Re: PCSX2 Disables Wayland Support

#178

Post by charcircuit »

mcpackieh wrote: post #166
charcircuit wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if you are someone who wrote their whole user space from scratch and don't use the internet or open any files made by others, you are not representative of the larger userbase. A lot of people download random software or libraries that could be malware or even just buggy (eg. The time Steam unintentionally deleted user files). These people want to gain utility from all of this software without having to worry ab…

In other words you want to facilitate the bad user habits of Windows, iOS, Android, etc on the Linux desktop. Why do you even want to use the Linux desktop in the first place if you prefer those systems? Stick to what suits you instead of trying to assimilate the niche holdout systems like some sort desktop borg.

>you want to facilitate the bad user habits of Windows, iOS, Android, etc on the Linux desktop

They are not bad user habits. They are only bad if the system is poorly designed. Unfortunately, the Linux desktop was poorly designed and the community is taking their sweet time to fix it.

>Why do you even want to use the Linux desktop in the first place if you prefer those systems?

It's just what I am used to using. I ackowledge the security of my computer sucks and I could be easily pwned at any time.

>trying to assimilate the niche holdout systems like some sort desktop borg.

I want the Linux desktop to be viable to use. Having competitive security compared to other operating systems is important. People shouldn't have to worry that using a Linux desktop will mean that a bad program can steal all of their accounts or delete all the files they have been working on. These type of things are preventable by the system and just blaming people that they should have known that what they downloaded was malware even if it is not at all obvious.

Re: PCSX2 Disables Wayland Support

#179

Post by mort96 »

initplus wrote: post #106
uneekname wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's cool if GNOME doesn't work well for you, but for me it's near-perfect. For sure it's rough around the edges, but what isn't? GNOME helps me get work done, stays out of my way until I need it, etc. I see so much general hate towards GNOME on HN, and it's really annoying. If it doesn't work for you, great, I'd like to hear why. But saying it's "strictly downsides" simply isn't true, nor productive.

Issues with GNOME come down to three inter-related issues. * Configurability - GNOME goes out of it's way to remove any configurability from their DE. First they move settings to obscure places, next they remove them entirely. * Compatibility - GNOME devs don't provide solutions for common use cases like window positioning or screen capture (yes I know that screen capture is now supported, but it's a compositor speci…

> [screen capture is] a compositor specific implementation rather than actually standardized by Wayland

This isn't actually true anymore. The standard way to do screen capture on Wayland is to use the org.freedesktop.portal.ScreenCast portal. AFAIK that's supported on pretty much every compositor these days.

Re: PCSX2 Disables Wayland Support

#180

Post by imiric »

k8svet wrote: post #58
imiric wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

X11 today works better for more users than Wayland. No user will want to switch to something that provides a worse experience. Until these issues are ironed out, it's delusional to think that making Wayland the default will make users happy. Keep it as an experimental feature, and once it provides an objectively better experience for everyone, make it the default. These technical discussions by folks in the trenches…

Sure, X11 "better", as long as you don't have high or mixed DPI screens, appreciate variable refresh rates, arbitrary scale factors, don't mind inconsistent tearing, aren't bothered by using a openly unmaintained, abandoned critical piece of desktop infra, etc. Otoh, if you're willing to buy a GPU from a vendor that doesn't snub Linux, or maybe god forbid change screenshot programs (doubt you even need to nowadays),…

> Sure, X11 "better", as long as you don't have high or mixed DPI screens, appreciate variable refresh rates ...

Tell that to the PCSX2 users who experience issues on Wayland, but not on Xorg.

This is what I mean by missing the forest for the trees. There's no doubt that Wayland is technically superior to Xorg in many ways. But technical superiority means squat if applications are misbehaving and crashing. While developers are arguing about who should be in charge of window placement (FFS, how is _this_ still a discussion after *15 years*!?), the only thing users get is a poor experience.

> Shove your fingers in your ears harder and make that tantrum louder.

I didn't downvote you, but maybe you should follow your own advice and realize that Wayland does not work great for everyone. Your type of dismissals are the equivalent of "works on my machine".

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