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Understanding Deep Learning

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Re: Understanding Deep Learning

#41

Post by GeneralMayhem »

nsxwolf wrote: post #9

As someone who missed the boat on this, is learning about this just for historical purposes now, or is there still relevance to future employment? I just imagine the OpenAI eats everyone's lunch in regards to anything AI related, am I way off base?

The most important thing to learn for most practical purposes is what the thing can actually do. There's a lot of fuzzy thinking around ML - "throw AI at it and it'll magically get better!" Sources like Karpathy's recent video on what LLMs actually do are good anti-hype for the lay audience, but getting good practical working knowledge that's a level deeper is tough without working through it. You don't have to memorize all the math, but it's good to get a feel for the "interface" of the components. What is it that each model technique actually does - especially at inference time, where it needs to be well-integrated with the rest of the stack?

In terms of continued relevance - "deep learning", meaning, dense neural nets trained to optimize a particular function, haven't fundamentally changed in practice in ~15 years (and much longer than that in theory), and are still way more important and broadly used than the OpenAI stuff for most purposes. Anything that involves numerical estimation (e.g., ad optimization, financial modeling) is not going to use LLMs, it's going to use a purpose-built model as part of a larger system. The interface of "put numbers in, get number[s] out" is more explainable, easier to integrate with the rest of your software stack, and more measurable. It has error bars that are understandable and occasionally even consistent. It has a controllable interface that won't suddenly decide to blurt corporate secrets or forget how to serialize JSON. And it has much, much lower latency and cost - any time you're trying to render a web page in under 100ms or run an optimization over millions of options, generative AI just isn't a practical option (and is unlikely to become one, IMO).

I don't have a significant math or theoretical ML background, but I've spent most of the last 10 years working side by side with ML experts on infra, data pipelines, and monitoring. I'm not sure I could integrate the sigmoid off the top of my head, but that's not what's important - I've done it once, enough to have some idea how the function behaves, and I know how to reason about it as a black box component.

Re: Understanding Deep Learning

#43

Post by opportune »

ldjkfkdsjnv wrote: post #23
HighFreqAsuka wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quite a lot of techniques in deep learning have stood the test of time at this point. Also new techniques are developed either depending on or trying to solved deficiencies in old techniques. For example Transformers were developed to solve vanishing gradients in LSTMs over long sequences and improve GPU utilization since LSTMs were inherently sequential in the time dimension.

Sure, but if you were an expert in LSTM, thats nice, you know the lineage of algorithms. But it probably isnt valuable, companies dont care, and you cant directly use that knowledge. You would never just randomly study LSTMs now.

There are plenty of transferrable skills you get from being an expert something that gets made obsolete by a similar-but-different iterative improvement. Maybe you're really good at implementing ideas from papers, you have a great intuitive understanding of how to structure a model to utilize some tech within a particular domain, you understand very well how to implement/use models that require state, you know how to clean and structure data to leverage a particular feature, etc.

Also, being an "expert in LSTM" is like being an "expert in HTTP/1.1" or "knowing a lot about Java 8". It's not knowledge or a skill that stands on its own. An expert in HTTP/1.1 is probably also very knowledge about web serving or networking or backend development. HTTP/2 being invented doesn't obsolete the knowledge at all. And that knowledge of HTTP/1.1 would certainly come in handy if you were trying to research or design something like a new protocol, just as knowledge of LSTMs could provide a lot of value for those looking for the next breakthrough in stateful models.

Re: Understanding Deep Learning

#44

Post by ww520 »

nsxwolf wrote: post #9

As someone who missed the boat on this, is learning about this just for historical purposes now, or is there still relevance to future employment? I just imagine the OpenAI eats everyone's lunch in regards to anything AI related, am I way off base?

From an application perspective, it's more important to understand how the overall ML process work, the key concepts, and how things are fitted together. Deep Learning is a part of that. Lots of these are already wrapped in libraries and API, so it's a matter of preparing the correct data, calling the right API's, and utilizing the result.

Re: Understanding Deep Learning

#45

Post by dafaqueue »

deepsquirrelnet wrote: post #31
nsxwolf wrote: post #9

As someone who missed the boat on this, is learning about this just for historical purposes now, or is there still relevance to future employment? I just imagine the OpenAI eats everyone's lunch in regards to anything AI related, am I way off base?

This is about deep learning, of which LLMs are a subset. If you are interested in machine learning, then you should learn deep learning. It is incredibly useful for a lot of reasons. Unlike other areas of ML, the nature of deep learning is such that its parts are interoperable. You could use a transformer with a CNN if you wish. Also, deep learning enables you to do machine learning on any type of data, text, images,…

I started off being really excited to learn, but as time went on I actually lost interest in the field.

The whole thing is essentially curve fitting. The ML field is essentially an art more than a science and it's all about tricks and intuitions on different ways of getting that best fit curve.

From this angle the whole field got way less interesting. The field has nothing deeper or more insightful to offer beyond this concept of curve fitting.

Re: Understanding Deep Learning

#46

Post by xcv123 »

opportune wrote: post #43
ldjkfkdsjnv wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but if you were an expert in LSTM, thats nice, you know the lineage of algorithms. But it probably isnt valuable, companies dont care, and you cant directly use that knowledge. You would never just randomly study LSTMs now.

There are plenty of transferrable skills you get from being an expert something that gets made obsolete by a similar-but-different iterative improvement. Maybe you're really good at implementing ideas from papers, you have a great intuitive understanding of how to structure a model to utilize some tech within a particular domain, you understand very well how to implement/use models that require state, you know how to…

FYI, LSTMs are not obsolete. They are still the best option in many cases and are being deployed today.

Re: Understanding Deep Learning

#47

Post by spencerchubb »

ldjkfkdsjnv wrote: post #22
nabla9 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>machine learning platforms Machine learning platforms become obsolete. Machine learning algorithms and ideas don't. If learning SVN or Naive Bayes did not teach you things that are useful today, you didn't learn anything.

Nobody is building real technology with either of those algorithms. Sure, they are theoretically helpful, but they arent valuable anymore. Spending your precious life learning them is a waste

This brings up an important question: Is a topic useful to learn if you will never use it in your life?

To attempt answering this question, we can look at LLMs as an analogy. If you include code in the training set for an LLM, it also makes the LLM better at non-coding tasks, suggesting that sometimes learning something makes you also better at other things. I'm not saying the same necessarily applies for learning these "old school" AI techniques, but it's a decently analogy at least.

Re: Understanding Deep Learning

#48

Post by [deleted] »

ksherlock wrote: post #13
nsxwolf wrote: post #9

As someone who missed the boat on this, is learning about this just for historical purposes now, or is there still relevance to future employment? I just imagine the OpenAI eats everyone's lunch in regards to anything AI related, am I way off base?

Maybe last week's drama should have been a left-pad moment. For many things you can train your own NN and be just as good without being dependent on internet access, third parties, etc. Knowing how things work should give you insight into using them better.

[deleted]

Re: Understanding Deep Learning

#49

Post by wilkystyle »

GeneralMayhem wrote: post #41
nsxwolf wrote: post #9

As someone who missed the boat on this, is learning about this just for historical purposes now, or is there still relevance to future employment? I just imagine the OpenAI eats everyone's lunch in regards to anything AI related, am I way off base?

The most important thing to learn for most practical purposes is what the thing can actually do. There's a lot of fuzzy thinking around ML - "throw AI at it and it'll magically get better!" Sources like Karpathy's recent video on what LLMs actually do are good anti-hype for the lay audience, but getting good practical working knowledge that's a level deeper is tough without working through it. You don't have to memor…

> Sources like Karpathy's recent video on what LLMs actually do are good anti-hype for the lay audience

Which video is this?

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