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PCSX2 Disables Wayland Support

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Re: PCSX2 Disables Wayland Support

#51

Post by tannhaeuser »

jdlyga wrote: post #7

Are we subjecting ourselves to the sunk cost fallacy with Wayland? It's been "almost ready" for 6 or 7 years at this point.

If you mean wayland compositors in general, that's more like 15 years according to [1].

For gnome's Mutter, it's 12 years:

> Until they sort their s*t out, which is unlikely, since there's been very little progress over the last decade, just keep it disabled.

Begging the question if Wayland itself is already antiquated and if its maintenance perspective is any better than X.org's. When lack of developer motivation to work on X.org appears to be the sole point of leaving it behind since new apps haven't been created and (Nvidia) drivers for Wayland may still be problematic.

I can totally understand the desire to start with a clean architecture, but chances are we have to basically start over at square one, with the problem of how to attract younger devs now who want to invest their time into newer languages and/or graphics pipelines rather than maintaining Wayland.

[1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayland_(protocol)

Re: PCSX2 Disables Wayland Support

#52

Post by shmerl »

> NVIDIA just crashes in swap chain creation under Wayland

I'd say ignore Nvidia, their Wayland support is junk (until nouveau+nvk catches up). It's not a Wayland problem, it's Nvidia problem.

For dealing with CSD mess, there is libdecoration that SDL started using.

In general - just use SDL for for DE integration, instead of trying to reinvent the wheel.

Wayland is not broken. But if you are trying to reinvent the wheel of supporting it from scratch, you'll be hitting a lot of things that need to be implemented. So as above, don't do it. Others already did it for you.

Re: PCSX2 Disables Wayland Support

#54

Post by LtWorf »

apatheticonion wrote: post #27

As a naive user who largely hasn't had any issue with it. Is Wayland that bad?

The internet is full of people that will inform you that all the stuff that stops working when switching to wayland is your own fault and you're a liar anyway.

I'm quite convinced these people just use windows and occasionally open linux in a vm for 10 minutes.

Re: PCSX2 Disables Wayland Support

#55

Post by Arnavion »

ryandrake wrote: post #46
Laaas wrote: post #20

FWIW all the reasons seem like an aversion to complying with how Wayland works. Yes, you can't position windows absolutely, but that's because you're not supposed to do that. In any case I don't see how being able to position windows is relevant at all to PCXS2's functioning on Wayland? Just don't position windows if you can't? It's an incredibly dumb reason not to support the protocol. Xorg is mostly unmaintained AF…

> Yes, you can't position windows absolutely, but that's because you're not supposed to do that. Why not? This seems like a pretty opinionated policy from something that's supposed to be a platform to enable applications. Why should some other developer dictate how an application should work? I'd expect "My way or the highway" from Apple, but not from a linux API.

It's more nuanced than "should be able to do it" and "shouldn't be able to do it". The problem is covered in the wayland-protocols MR that the PCSX2 PR author also linked to (and failed to appreciate): https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/m...

Re: PCSX2 Disables Wayland Support

#56

Post by cmrdporcupine »

apatheticonion wrote: post #27

As a naive user who largely hasn't had any issue with it. Is Wayland that bad?

I have no problems with recent Ubuntu & Gnome & Wayland, unless I launch a game in Steam, and then it's a mixed bag (tho getting better).

And in fact multimonitor support esp with multiple DPIs & resolutions works much better with Wayland than with X. For that, X is just a terrible experience.

But I'm on AMD. Thinkpad Z16 AMD Gen1.

Re: PCSX2 Disables Wayland Support

#57

Post by LtWorf »

DistractionRect wrote: post #13
iamcreasy wrote: post #2

> KDE isn't too buggy, GNOME is a complete disaster. What did the author mean by this? Don't know much about Wayland other than it is window system, replacing x11. KDE Plasma wiki[1] says, "KDE Plasma 5 is the fifth and current generation of the graphical workspaces environment created by KDE....KDE Plasma 5 uses the X Window System and Wayland." [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KDE_Plasma_5

Basically Wayland only supports a subset of what X11 could do. It's more scoped and does a good job with what it's supposed to do. That said, the rest of the functionality is now an exercise for desktop environments, and they can (and do) things differently.

> does a good job with what it's supposed to do.

And anything that people used to do on X11, they are told by zealots that they are wrong and aren't supposed to do that.

For example:

Not losing all the work every time your windows manager crashes

remapping keys

Use xinput to change parameters of their input devices (libinput dropped most configuration options present with evdev)

Global shortcuts

tunnelling over ssh

Re: PCSX2 Disables Wayland Support

#58

Post by k8svet »

imiric wrote: post #34
hashworks wrote: post #12

Actions like this will just hurt Wayland in the long run. It needs more users, and for that more applications that support it by default. No one will bring X11 to the level of Wayland, but someone might fix the existing Wayland problems.

X11 today works better for more users than Wayland. No user will want to switch to something that provides a worse experience. Until these issues are ironed out, it's delusional to think that making Wayland the default will make users happy. Keep it as an experimental feature, and once it provides an objectively better experience for everyone, make it the default. These technical discussions by folks in the trenches…

Sure, X11 "better", as long as you don't have high or mixed DPI screens, appreciate variable refresh rates, arbitrary scale factors, don't mind inconsistent tearing, aren't bothered by using a openly unmaintained, abandoned critical piece of desktop infra, etc.

Otoh, if you're willing to buy a GPU from a vendor that doesn't snub Linux, or maybe god forbid change screenshot programs (doubt you even need to nowadays), you get plenty of benefits with Wayland.

Edit: athe kind of person that downvotes comments like this are some of the least respectable, laughable, on the planet. Shove your fingers in your ears harder and make that tantrum louder. I'm sure it will convince X11 devs to abandon Wayland and return to the project they declared on life support, yup. That's how these things work.

Re: PCSX2 Disables Wayland Support

#59

Post by LtWorf »

hashworks wrote: post #50
imiric wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

X11 today works better for more users than Wayland. No user will want to switch to something that provides a worse experience. Until these issues are ironed out, it's delusional to think that making Wayland the default will make users happy. Keep it as an experimental feature, and once it provides an objectively better experience for everyone, make it the default. These technical discussions by folks in the trenches…

I guess I'm just hoping for some user that will be bugged enough by problems in Wayland that they decide to fix them. The chance of that increases with user count. I understand that the bulk "forest" of Linux users don't care about their window manager / desktop environment, but it's a higher number than in other operating systems. This approach wouldn't work in Windows or MacOS, in Linux it might.

Why learn about wayland and figure out how to fix things (and then probably have gnome developers never ever accept your fix) when you can just switch to Xorg in 3 seconds?

Re: PCSX2 Disables Wayland Support

#60

Post by happymellon »

askonomm wrote: post #30
Laaas wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is about X vs Wayland, not Windows vs Linux.

It's about the GPU used in regular laptops, I'd imagine, for which Windows has drivers and support, and Linux does not. That's my point. X11 for those laptops works more reliably, but even then there's immense screen tearing, blurry texts, broken fractional scaling, etc. I just don't know why I would ever use software of this quality when even Windows XP had less issues like this in its hayday, and it released 20 yea…

If you mean NVIDIA, then they haven't played nicely with the kernel or X11 either.

Distros that "work" have to pin and lock your X11 and kernels to get the magic combination.

Nvidia has been terrible for a while, and this is not Wayland specific.

My Intel and AMD laptops have worked great.

My SteamDeck is awesome.

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