Live data from Hacker News

Cash Cows

ageofinvention.xyz

41–50 of 67 posts

Re: Cash Cows

#42

Selective breeding always struck me as interesting for the sheer amount of time required for experimentation. Pick your pairs, and then wait 2-5 years before you can repeat the cycle again. Amazing that a single lifetime was able to yield measurable results. Also reminded of the fox domestication program[0] where they were able to go from wild foxes to a dog-like domesticated breed within a decade. >Belyaev was corre…

Think in scale. If you don't breed your cows, the neighbor's bull will come over the fence and do it for you, so you're incentivized to keep your cows bred. One bull will handle a large number of cows, so picking desirable bulls and a variety of interesting cows gives (roughly) $nCows potential picks for the next generation per herd (and Bakewell had many). Cows gestate for 8 months and results are frequently apparent in very young calves. Sexual maturity hits at 12-15 months (though, traditionally, first calf heifers were bred closer to 2 years), so 4 generations per decade in direct lineage isn't impossible.

It's not particularly difficult to select for specific traits when you consider inbreeding (which Bakewell did) and linebreeding (same idea, but avoiding excessive coefficient of inbreeding). Arguably, changing the muscle distribution on a domestic cow given a plethora of similar domestic breeds with different muscle distribution is easier than shrinking the adrenal gland in a wild fox given only wild stock.

Not to diminish in any way Bakewell's accomplishments. He revolutionized the field of animal husbandry.

Late edit to add an example: our (big, light brown, horned) Jersey milk cow came into heat and the (smaller, oreo-colored: almost black, white band around the belly, almost black; no horns) Belted Galloway bull jumped the fence, siring a heifer with small horns, a redder black, a splotchy band, and significantly greater size. Her offspring (against a bull from the same herd, possibly her sire) are medium-dark brown with a red tinge and a splotch of white, have no horns, and are still larger. Their offspring are very dark, solid brown with obvious red in sunlight, are still larger than the non-Jersey lines, and have, in every example, excellent conformation. All this in the last 7 years. The most recent generation will calf next year. Imagine what we could do with a targeted selection program!

Re: Cash Cows

#43
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Capitalism 'just' creates strong incentives for participation in zero-sum, or negative-sum games, without any in-system ability to check it. It 'just' creates strong incentives and imperatives for consolidation of wealth and power. It 'just' trends towards winners winning more. Under it, a dollar is a dollar, regardless of whether earning it improved the world, left it about the same, or made it worse. Unless you mak…

Capitalism is based on the notion trade and commerce is not Zero-sum, as compared to mercantilism which it replaced. Wealth of Nations is the explanation of why zero-sum thinking is wrong and that the wealth is not gold but economic capacity. When coupled with the realization that "now" is more valuable than "later", you can put a price on now (interest). This leads to the finance industry, and using a small sum as l…

Trade is generally not zero-sum, but trade implies transaction between relative-peers. Nation states. Corporations. Groups that have similar amounts of power (Or that can lean on friends.)

Many transactions that happen in a capitalist society are very much not transactions between peers. And those can absolutely be, and often are zero-sum, or negative-sum.

Re: Cash Cows

#44
> Bakewell ended up doing similar for his sheep, “so plump that we have measured several of them and found them broader than they are tall … having on each side a great lump of fat which the farmer called cloven flank”.

Downside: they can get stuck on their backs and die https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guEyxTpevFo

Re: Cash Cows

#45

Selective breeding always struck me as interesting for the sheer amount of time required for experimentation. Pick your pairs, and then wait 2-5 years before you can repeat the cycle again. Amazing that a single lifetime was able to yield measurable results. Also reminded of the fox domestication program[0] where they were able to go from wild foxes to a dog-like domesticated breed within a decade. >Belyaev was corre…

Wow, this is super interesting, thanks for sharing. A bit unclear from the articlr overview if they managed to do 6 reproduction cycles in just 6 years total and got to significant results. Or if it was 6x6. In any case, now my dream of breeding a fully domesticated group of raccoons seems more feasible!

[deleted]

Re: Cash Cows

#46
post #6

Despite the optimistic tone this is rather depressing reading. This is the beginning of the industrial farming trend that has made all meat products rather tasteless.

You really threw me for a loop with the conclusion that industrial farming is bad because it made meat bland, rather than because of its profound environmental and humanitarian costs.

A thing can be bad for two reasons; to recognize that it's bad because of one of them is not to deny that it's bad for the other.

Re: Cash Cows

#47

Off-topic: I'm looking to read more old books and the genre of travel diaries from the eighteenth century that the author mentioned seems very interesting. Does anyone have recommendations for those kinds of books?

Alexandra David-Neel was a force of nature. There's an English translation of 'My Journey to Lhasa' that is well worth tracking down. You'll never look at a border guard the same way again.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandra_David-N%C3%A9el

Re: Cash Cows

#48
I am surprised more people are not doing this and its variants. It only takes someone, or ideally a family, willing to start a project that spans multiple decades - something people do all the time with careers and other hobbies.

To me it seems strange how concentrated these efforts are in some communities while seemingly silent in others. Cannabis farmers and pepper farmers nerd out about it a lot. I think dog breeders do although I suspect the existence of “institutions” like AKC and dog shows channels their efforts into ossification of existing breeds. I’m sure plenty of regular livestock breeders are trying but you don’t hear about it and they don’t seem to have done anything truly crazy in a while (that I’m aware of) to the extent Pepper/Cannabis breeders have.

Just to demonstrate what’s possible: Belyayev was able to make huge progress domesticating foxes in just 26 years [0]. Dachshunds [1] didn’t look anything like their current forms until the late 19th century (I think a lot of dog breeds saw huge changes around this time but not certain). Cannabis breeding didn’t even really start until the 1960s and we have an absolutely massive assortment of strains, not just differing in subjective “flavor” and “effects” but with quantifiable massive differences in concentration, overall volume of flower produced, and flowering behavior. Because people didn’t understand what it was, some say that the domestication of yeast [2] didn’t even start until the 16th century.

All that said it baffles me why more people aren’t trying to domesticate bears, otters, lemurs, raccoons, etc. Maybe not bears, but the rest could probably be domesticated in a human lifespan and (not bears) without many expenses year-on-year. I’ve always said I’d try this if I came into the means to do so at a young enough age. Even for medium-scale farmers of your regular-old cow, having some kind of special breed or phenotype seems like a great way to move up-market with a differentiated, unique product.

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmitry_Belyayev_(zoologist)

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dachshund

[2] https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/09/160908130552.h...

Re: Cash Cows

#49
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Capitalism is based on the notion trade and commerce is not Zero-sum, as compared to mercantilism which it replaced. Wealth of Nations is the explanation of why zero-sum thinking is wrong and that the wealth is not gold but economic capacity. When coupled with the realization that "now" is more valuable than "later", you can put a price on now (interest). This leads to the finance industry, and using a small sum as l…

Trade is generally not zero-sum, but trade implies transaction between relative-peers. Nation states. Corporations. Groups that have similar amounts of power (Or that can lean on friends.) Many transactions that happen in a capitalist society are very much not transactions between peers. And those can absolutely be, and often are zero-sum, or negative-sum.

Can you give examples where transactions result in negative sum due to asymmetrical power, and what the proposed solution is?

From my limited perspective, unless you actually do get rid of private ownership imbalances will exist and Power imbalances will exist regardless of the economic system.

Re: Cash Cows

#50

Selective breeding always struck me as interesting for the sheer amount of time required for experimentation. Pick your pairs, and then wait 2-5 years before you can repeat the cycle again. Amazing that a single lifetime was able to yield measurable results. Also reminded of the fox domestication program[0] where they were able to go from wild foxes to a dog-like domesticated breed within a decade. >Belyaev was corre…

I would think of it as annealing/gradient descent instead of some kind of Markov process where maybe you get lucky every 2-5 years. You are not breeding for the purpose of getting one animal with the trait (well you can, but not necessarily) so much as you are trying to influence a population of animals to display the traits you want over time. Maybe first generation you have an average yield of X across 100animals. And you don’t let the lowest yielding 50% breed (or just have them breed less so you can’t counteract inbreeding), now generation 2 has an average yield of 1.05X across 100animals. If you know the trait is heritable it seems pretty straightforward.

What’s challenging is I guess you can’t know a priori much about the actual genetics at play so at a certain point it becomes hard to know what’s simply phenotypic variance independent of genetics and what’s actually genes - it could take quite a while to be certain you’ve “converged”. Or for something more subjective/without an obvious strong genetic link, it could take a while to rule out the possibility of breeding for the trait at all.

Like for humans, I’m highly confident you could do some basic process over 10 generations to breed some ridiculously tall people. But it helps we know it has huge variance, is highly heritable, is easy to measure, and is polygenic. Probably a lot harder to try to breed “nice” people or people with thick skin. The fact dog breeders can do things like that is much more impressive IMO.

Post reply on HN