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Superficial toxicity is the enemy of curiosity-driven innovation in science

avi-loeb.medium.com

31–40 of 41 posts

Re: Superficial toxicity is the enemy of curiosity-driven innovation in science

#31
Knowing nothing about the technical merits of the two groups, it looks like the repeated interaction between Loeb's camp and their critics has been:

1) Loeb makes a bold claim about some phenomenon and attaches extraterrestrial life to it. He chooses to do this in a way that will attract media attention, like a press release.

2) The press release gets picked up by media, because Loeb is a notorious Harvard professor. At least some of the media will phrase it as "scientists say...".

3) Other scientists, perhaps at universities whose press releases are mostly ignored by media, see this and say "hey, I'm a scientist too, we do not say that". They try to engage Loeb and over time escalate their criticisms from "civil and private discussions" to "public and somewhat insulting". They might feel justified in doing this because they see Loeb's mass-media communication as being at approximately the same level of technical detail; at a certain point, a technical argument is not going to attract attention or understanding of the seriousness of the claim being made, but a blunt criticism will ("this guy is nuts and does not represent his field").

4) Loeb describes 3) as a bunch of overly conservative cranks holding back scientists and directly analogizes himself to Galileo, predictably frustrating his critics further.

Like I said, I can't say anything useful about the technical details. But it seems like an important detail here is that Loeb has repeatedly chosen to try and fight this out using public opinion, and his opponents have found themselves somewhat awkwardly picking up and using similar weapons for maybe the first time in their careers, and are not enjoying it. This seems to happen a lot in modern science!

Re: Superficial toxicity is the enemy of curiosity-driven innovation in science

#32

This guy completely lost it. Nobody in the field treats him seriously because he publishes like 1 first paper a month with all sorts of speculations and shoddy science. Sure when his first claims were distributed about Oumuamua, people were at least somewhat accepting that may be plausible, but then he continued pushing in that direction, as well as trying to be in the media all the time. Realistically I think many s…

I wish more scientists were like this—a little out there while being highly enthusiastic, technical and evidence driven. Evidence will eventually bear out the bad hypotheses. The worse crime is creating fearful career scientists.

Re: Superficial toxicity is the enemy of curiosity-driven innovation in science

#33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's superficial and bordering on ad-hominem.

When your work is as a scientist, and you want to be judged as a scientist, your work being pseudoscience is not superficial. That's like saying pointing out your accountant is facing tax fraud charges isn't germane to his work as your accountant.

What qualifies Loeb's work as pseudoscience (which is different from erroneous science as pointed out in the paper and blog post he reacts to) ? The thematics he chose to explore. He could have worded his paper differently, totally burying the extraterrestrial tech hypothesis he had in mind and there would have been no repercussions. Your opinion is driven by the semantics of the topic at hand and its success relies on the fact it fits into two heavily imbalanced classes. Of course I can go around and tell people they don't have that super rare disease: that doesn't mean I'm not a crank too.

Still waiting for you to delve into the details of the argument against Loeb's claims rather than using broad and easy categorization (which etymologically means accusation).

Re: Superficial toxicity is the enemy of curiosity-driven innovation in science

#34

This guy completely lost it. Nobody in the field treats him seriously because he publishes like 1 first paper a month with all sorts of speculations and shoddy science. Sure when his first claims were distributed about Oumuamua, people were at least somewhat accepting that may be plausible, but then he continued pushing in that direction, as well as trying to be in the media all the time. Realistically I think many s…

FWIW his blog post struck me as narcissistic in tone. A martyr gazing at the stars, assaulted by the world.

And the bit about grad students too terrified to pursue research because of some ostensibly bad criticism on the internet is comical. You cannot become a good academic if all it takes is a little criticism from somewhere to deflate you, if you need constant validation to function. If you do, you will become, like many academics and people in general, a conformist out of fear of losing approval. This is not to valorize contrarians (who still operate in terms of what others think), but to say that an academic must be honest and pursue the truth and be able to defend his arguments against or ignore bad criticism and concede valid criticism. If you cannot survive the meat grinder of criticism, if you lack the spine and the thick skin, you won’t flourish. It’s not for you, at least not until you mature.

Re: Superficial toxicity is the enemy of curiosity-driven innovation in science

#36
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is half true. There absolutely is a cost to initiating any change, but that is a one time cost. Some changes can yield dramatic increases in productivity or reductions to costs further down stream. If there exists proper discourse that takes this into consideration then in all fairness any veto presented is certainly not toxic. When internal initiatives are killed or directed for purely selfish motivations, such…

> That is half true. There absolutely is a cost to initiating any change, but that is a one time cost. Some changes can yield dramatic increases in productivity or reductions to costs further down stream. If there exists proper discourse that takes this into consideration then in all fairness any veto presented is certainly not toxic. I'm sorry, I didn't understood a word of what you tried to say. I'm even suspecting…

Translation: there are times when a veto is warranted, but other times the effort to build software custom fit to your problems is worth spending the time to make. More often than vetoing for any valid reason, they do it so they don't have to give up software they are comfortable with.

Re: Superficial toxicity is the enemy of curiosity-driven innovation in science

#37

So, the author links to a 32-page arXiv paper that criticizes his own paper, and calls that criticism "toxic" (and "misinformation", too), and contextualizes it with angry Twitter mobs? That's an odd perspective. What exactly does he mean when he says Harvard astronomy department postdocs are being "terrorized" by "aggressive" criticism?

[deleted]

Re: Superficial toxicity is the enemy of curiosity-driven innovation in science

#38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When your work is as a scientist, and you want to be judged as a scientist, your work being pseudoscience is not superficial. That's like saying pointing out your accountant is facing tax fraud charges isn't germane to his work as your accountant.

What qualifies Loeb's work as pseudoscience (which is different from erroneous science as pointed out in the paper and blog post he reacts to) ? The thematics he chose to explore. He could have worded his paper differently, totally burying the extraterrestrial tech hypothesis he had in mind and there would have been no repercussions. Your opinion is driven by the semantics of the topic at hand and its success relies…

No one owes you an explanation, you're not 'waiting' for anything. You approve of Loeb's crank turn of late, that's fine, but you don't get to waste the time of others on demand.

Re: Superficial toxicity is the enemy of curiosity-driven innovation in science

#39

Knowing nothing about the technical merits of the two groups, it looks like the repeated interaction between Loeb's camp and their critics has been: 1) Loeb makes a bold claim about some phenomenon and attaches extraterrestrial life to it. He chooses to do this in a way that will attract media attention, like a press release. 2) The press release gets picked up by media, because Loeb is a notorious Harvard professor.…

Science doesn't really fund itself and "the public" is regularly questioning the expenses for it. The best example of what is wrong with this is the communication about Human made Global Warming and how it's possible that there are still people which deny it. Or take more crude examples like Vaccination skeptics or flat earthers. Results and methods are rarely published in understandable language.

Actually the Funding for studying the Higgs Boson famously got secured by making a really simple explanation.

Obviously Loeb might have gone a bit over the top given the odds of his theory but as you mention if reaching out to the public was more common nobody might have blinked an eye.

Re: Superficial toxicity is the enemy of curiosity-driven innovation in science

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What qualifies Loeb's work as pseudoscience (which is different from erroneous science as pointed out in the paper and blog post he reacts to) ? The thematics he chose to explore. He could have worded his paper differently, totally burying the extraterrestrial tech hypothesis he had in mind and there would have been no repercussions. Your opinion is driven by the semantics of the topic at hand and its success relies…

No one owes you an explanation, you're not 'waiting' for anything. You approve of Loeb's crank turn of late, that's fine, but you don't get to waste the time of others on demand.

fuck you I think Loeb is wrong, but you're just dumping your shitty easy opinion without putting forth any argument.
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