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The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess Decompilation

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Re: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess Decompilation

#81

Post by realusername »

AshamedCaptain wrote: post #76
realusername wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The specific purpose usually being interopability, yes it does apply to almost any piece of software on the planet. More specifically, it's always allowed for DRM code (because by definition their whole goal is to block interoperability), any kind of proprietary file reading and any kind of porting. Here in the case of these games, the interoperability argument is very easy to make since they can only run on legacy h…

Ok, do you realize that from you what you claim you can conclude that (software) copyright is useless? Go to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38410176 _Anyone_ could get any piece of software, claim that they want to run it on their new-fangled "x85" instruction set, and, according to your rationale, you'd be able to just decompile it to a different programming language and distribute your translation as much as…

> _Anyone_ could get any piece of software, claim that they want to run it on their new-fangled "x85" instruction set, and, according to your rationale, you'd be able to just decompile it to a different programming language and distribute your translation as much as you want!

Yeah, why not? If you have to run through all of this complexity to run the software you have to run, I don't see what it would not fit as an exception.

You realize that those protections against copyright aren't granted for free right? Everybody pays absurdly high rate of copy rights on every medium they buy in the EU and that's why those exceptions are there. If there is no means to copy what you own to use it in a different configuration, those would be meaningless.

Re: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess Decompilation

#82

Post by AshamedCaptain »

realusername wrote: post #81
AshamedCaptain wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, do you realize that from you what you claim you can conclude that (software) copyright is useless? Go to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38410176 _Anyone_ could get any piece of software, claim that they want to run it on their new-fangled "x85" instruction set, and, according to your rationale, you'd be able to just decompile it to a different programming language and distribute your translation as much as…

> _Anyone_ could get any piece of software, claim that they want to run it on their new-fangled "x85" instruction set, and, according to your rationale, you'd be able to just decompile it to a different programming language and distribute your translation as much as you want! Yeah, why not? If you have to run through all of this complexity to run the software you have to run, I don't see what it would not fit as an e…

> Yeah, why not? If you have to run through all of this complexity to run the software you have to run, I don't see what it would not fit as an exception.

What complexity? Emulators are almost everywhere, and they don't require you to violate any copyright (or a significantly smaller amount), and therefore much likely to fit under one of these exceptions (they do). "But the illegal way is easier, your honor!" doesn't really get you anywhere...

This world where software copyright does not exist is not an utopia of free source code, it's a wild wild west of obfuscated and/or inaccessible software and the company with largest pockets has the monopoly since it can do whatever it wants.

> You realize that those protections against copyright aren't granted for free right?

"Protections against copyright?" You mean exceptions, right? Copyright is ironically free.

> Everybody pays absurdly high rate of copy rights on every medium they buy in the EU and that's why those exceptions are ther

Not everybody in the EU, even though in my country (France) we do. However, how is this related at all to the discussion at hand? They are not even related to software copyrights at all! (For which there is already an exception for personal copies, and for which official we pay nothing).

Re: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess Decompilation

#83

Post by realusername »

AshamedCaptain wrote: post #82
realusername wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> _Anyone_ could get any piece of software, claim that they want to run it on their new-fangled "x85" instruction set, and, according to your rationale, you'd be able to just decompile it to a different programming language and distribute your translation as much as you want! Yeah, why not? If you have to run through all of this complexity to run the software you have to run, I don't see what it would not fit as an e…

> Yeah, why not? If you have to run through all of this complexity to run the software you have to run, I don't see what it would not fit as an exception. What complexity? Emulators are almost everywhere, and they don't require you to violate any copyright (or a significantly smaller amount), and therefore much likely to fit under one of these exceptions (they do). "But the illegal way is easier, your honor!" doesn't…

> Not everybody in the EU, even though in my country (France) we do. However, how is this related at all to the discussion at hand? They are not even related to software copyrights at all! (For which there is already an exception for personal copies, and for which official we pay nothing).

That's exactly where this exception is coming from. You can't make personal copies nowaydays without breaking some kind of DRM and that's why there's an interoperability exception.

France is indeed one of the worst in this racket but most of the EU has similar implementations.

> This world where software copyright does not exist is not an utopia of free source code, it's a wild wild west of obfuscated and/or inaccessible software and the company with largest pockets has the monopoly since it can do whatever it wants.

Well that's exactly where we at now, I'm writing this comment from a phone which has thousands of piles of obfuscated inaccessible and non modifiable software. Copyright is what led us there.

Re: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess Decompilation

#84

Post by AshamedCaptain »

realusername wrote: post #83
AshamedCaptain wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yeah, why not? If you have to run through all of this complexity to run the software you have to run, I don't see what it would not fit as an exception. What complexity? Emulators are almost everywhere, and they don't require you to violate any copyright (or a significantly smaller amount), and therefore much likely to fit under one of these exceptions (they do). "But the illegal way is easier, your honor!" doesn't…

> Not everybody in the EU, even though in my country (France) we do. However, how is this related at all to the discussion at hand? They are not even related to software copyrights at all! (For which there is already an exception for personal copies, and for which official we pay nothing). That's exactly where this exception is coming from. You can't make personal copies nowaydays without breaking some kind of DRM an…

> That's exactly where this exception is coming from. You can't make personal copies nowaydays without breaking some kind of DRM and that's why there's an interoperability exception.

I have already addressed the interoperability exception a couple messages before. In no way it just basically makes all copyright protections pointless by allowing you to claim "OK, now I can decompile this software and distribute it as I please!".

> Well that's exactly where we at now, I'm writing this comment from a phone which has thousands of piles of obfuscated inaccessible and non modifiable software. Copyright is what led us there.

Hardly. Copyright doesn't necessarily prevent nor make tivoization easier. The GPLv3 (or some new, specific legislation to this end) are the only things that would successfully prevent tivoitzation.

Re: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess Decompilation

#85

Post by Cypher »

shampto3 wrote: post #31

I’ve been having a blast playing an online multiplayer mod of ocarina of time for the PC port that was made from a decompilation a while back. I’m excited to see the fun stuff that is made from other decompilation projects like this.

how do you play that one?

Re: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess Decompilation

#86

Post by saagarjha »

matheusmoreira wrote: post #74
mjg59 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They took the distributed game binary and ran it through a tool that produced an approximation of source code. At this point the decompiled code is clearly a mechanical transformation of the game binary, and so holds the same copyright status. This code is then cleaned up such that it compiles and functions and variables are given sensible names. This is, arguably, a creative endeavour, but it's also clearly a deriva…

> They took the distributed game binary and ran it through a tool that produced an approximation of source code. > At this point the decompiled code is clearly a mechanical transformation of the game binary, and so holds the same copyright status. Courts disagree with you. Sony Computer Entertainment v. Connectix Corp. https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=716676913673727... > The object code of a program may…

Posting the quote “Object code cannot, however, be read by humans” in a discussion about decompiling a game is definitely a strange option to take.

Re: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess Decompilation

#87

Post by lrvick »

AshamedCaptain wrote: post #37
pjerem wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Code is just as subject to copyright as game assets The decompiled code is not the code that Nintendo wrote. This isn't the equivalent of steeling original code but more like generating a brand new code that would compile to the same executable.

Why is it always the same on every thread of this type? Perhaps I can grab the code segments of a Windows ISO, apply a series of mechanical transformations, and proceed to call it Freedows and freely distribute it as my own? I am having trouble understanding the thought processes that lead to these conclusions. Too much ChatGPT? By this logic copyright protection on software would be meaningless. The GPL would be mea…

People will de-compile proprietary software and GPL it, and others will have AI clone/port GPL code to new languages then back to the original language again to de-GPL code.

Overall this will make software copyright laws pointless, but in the end everything anyone cares about will be open source. I am here for this outcome.

Re: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess Decompilation

#88

Post by AshamedCaptain »

lrvick wrote: post #87
AshamedCaptain wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it always the same on every thread of this type? Perhaps I can grab the code segments of a Windows ISO, apply a series of mechanical transformations, and proceed to call it Freedows and freely distribute it as my own? I am having trouble understanding the thought processes that lead to these conclusions. Too much ChatGPT? By this logic copyright protection on software would be meaningless. The GPL would be mea…

People will de-compile proprietary software and GPL it, and others will have AI clone/port GPL code to new languages then back to the original language again to de-GPL code. Overall this will make software copyright laws pointless, but in the end everything anyone cares about will be open source. I am here for this outcome.

Frankly I think you have a very rosy view. If this were to happen I foresee companies would immediately start treating code as if it was a private key, using ridiculous hardware protection mechanism, tivoization, SaaS, and the like as much as possible. The entire reason code is so accessible right now is because companies only care about making it "inconvenient" for home piracy, relying on the threat of legal action for everyone else. Imagine a world where if you don't do it then your competitors can legally use your software. Everyone who isn't already releasing their software under the BSD or PD would stop doing so since just about everyone else could just shamelessly rip it into their next closed as hell & secure boot'd device. Your "AI" would have zero source code to train on. Only the companies with the largest resources would be able to break the latest obfuscation mechanisms, leading to more effective imbalances in power. And on and on..

Mandating open software & open hardware is one thing, but simply removing copyright doesn't led there -- it leads to a even more dystopic world.

Re: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess Decompilation

#89

Post by realusername »

AshamedCaptain wrote: post #84
realusername wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not everybody in the EU, even though in my country (France) we do. However, how is this related at all to the discussion at hand? They are not even related to software copyrights at all! (For which there is already an exception for personal copies, and for which official we pay nothing). That's exactly where this exception is coming from. You can't make personal copies nowaydays without breaking some kind of DRM an…

> That's exactly where this exception is coming from. You can't make personal copies nowaydays without breaking some kind of DRM and that's why there's an interoperability exception. I have already addressed the interoperability exception a couple messages before. In no way it just basically makes all copyright protections pointless by allowing you to claim "OK, now I can decompile this software and distribute it as…

> In no way it just basically makes all copyright protections pointless by allowing you to claim "OK, now I can decompile this software and distribute it as I please!".

I've never claimed that but it also goes further than the conglomerates would make you believe.

> Hardly. Copyright doesn't necessarily prevent nor make tivoization easier. The GPLv3 (or some new, specific legislation to this end) are the only things that would successfully prevent tivoitzation.

While its true that open devices and software are possible under copyright laws, it's more of a hack and clearly not the default.

I don't know how you would call a law to force opening up the sources of software but it's incompatible with the copyright concept, that's for sure.

Re: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess Decompilation

#90

Post by EMIRELADERO »

charcircuit wrote: post #61
EMIRELADERO wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is more likely to be fair use in this specific instance, as the copyrighted work to which the analysis is applied to is the whole game, not the code itself. A big part of fair use analysis is in the effect on the market for the original work. If people have to obtain a copy to even use the project in any interactable way, the effect is either none (if we suppose every user of the project gets their original copy i…

The game is a copyrighted work, but so is the source code. The compiled code is a derivative work, and so is the decompiled code. Nintendo is not selling the source code, so arguing about sales in the market does not makes sense.

The fair use analysis is done on the work as a whole, the Zelda game that's registered on the Copyright Office. Not the code only.
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