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After OpenAI's blowup, it seems pretty clear that 'AI safety' isn't a real thing

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Re: After OpenAI's blowup, it seems pretty clear that 'AI safety' isn't a real thing

#91
post #70

It's so confusing because people keep (intentionally?) conflating two separate ideas of "AI safety". The first is the kind of humdrum ChatGPT safety of, don't swear, don't be sexually explicit, don't provide instructions on how to commit crimes, don't reproduce copyrighted materials, etc. Or preventing self-driving cars from harming pedestrians. This stuff is important but also pretty boring, and by all indications c…

Why are you so sure we are that far from AGI? Looking at current capabilities, and rate of improvement I would be surprised if it is more than a few years off.

My position is that it is either right around the corner or that it is 50 years and several major tech breakthroughs away. The reason is that there is now so much money poured into this space that you are essentially doing an exhaustive search around the point already reached. As long as that results in more breakthroughs more money will be available. If that stops working for a while then the money dries up and we're in a period of quiet again. So keep an eye on the rate of improvements and as long as no single year passes without a breakthrough it could happen any time.

Re: After OpenAI's blowup, it seems pretty clear that 'AI safety' isn't a real thing

#92
post #73

It's so confusing because people keep (intentionally?) conflating two separate ideas of "AI safety". The first is the kind of humdrum ChatGPT safety of, don't swear, don't be sexually explicit, don't provide instructions on how to commit crimes, don't reproduce copyrighted materials, etc. Or preventing self-driving cars from harming pedestrians. This stuff is important but also pretty boring, and by all indications c…

Doesn't the second kind apply to AI in military drones? Companies like OpenAI talking about AI safety is a nice way of numbing us to AI used in actual killing machines. https://www.defensenews.com/unmanned/2023/08/03/artificial-i... https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidhambling/2023/10/17/ukrain...

Killbots are trivial and probably don't even need AGI.

Re: After OpenAI's blowup, it seems pretty clear that 'AI safety' isn't a real thing

#93

It's so confusing because people keep (intentionally?) conflating two separate ideas of "AI safety". The first is the kind of humdrum ChatGPT safety of, don't swear, don't be sexually explicit, don't provide instructions on how to commit crimes, don't reproduce copyrighted materials, etc. Or preventing self-driving cars from harming pedestrians. This stuff is important but also pretty boring, and by all indications c…

I think you’re dead on here. There is a lot of need for guardrails against ML in regards to things like self driving cars or deepfakes. I don’t think there’s much debate here, because, as you said, companies are doing a good job.

The whole threat of AGI is so overblown and - IMO - being used to create regulatory capture. It’s truly confusing to me to see guys like Hinton saying AI poses some kind of existential threat against humanity. Unless he means the people using it as a tool (which I’d argue is the former case we’re talking about), it seems like fear mongering to say that science fiction movies could become true just because we’ve gotten amazing results at generating text.

Re: After OpenAI's blowup, it seems pretty clear that 'AI safety' isn't a real thing

#94

It's so confusing because people keep (intentionally?) conflating two separate ideas of "AI safety". The first is the kind of humdrum ChatGPT safety of, don't swear, don't be sexually explicit, don't provide instructions on how to commit crimes, don't reproduce copyrighted materials, etc. Or preventing self-driving cars from harming pedestrians. This stuff is important but also pretty boring, and by all indications c…

> We're so far away from AGI Although I personally suspect this is correct, the issue seems to be that there are a lot of people who feel otherwise, whether right or wrong, including some of the people involved in the research and/or running these companies. I've seen several prominent people say things to the effect of "We just don't know if we're six months or 600 years from AGI,", which to me is a little like sayi…

It is a relatively mainstream opinion (e.g. Peter Norvig [1]) that AGI is already here but in the early stages. He specifically compares it to the beginning of general purpose computers. In any case, I think it’s a mistake to consider it a 0/1 situation. This means there will be an ecology of competitive intelligences in the market. It won’t be monolithic.

[1] https://www.noemamag.com/artificial-general-intelligence-is-...

Re: After OpenAI's blowup, it seems pretty clear that 'AI safety' isn't a real thing

#95

Please drop the insulting guard rails. They're pathetic and childish. AI's advice will not be taken seriously unless it stops acting like a parent of a three-year-old. People who are truly evil will be evil regardless of an AI, and pranksters gonna prank. AI can't tell the difference anyway. In any event, it's unethical for an AI to sit in judgment on any human or even to try to grasp that person's life experience or…

There are arguments for this. When we are talking about "ai safety" == "don't swear or say anything rude, or anything that I disagree with politically".

What we are talking about is creating sets of forbidden knowledge and topics. The more you add these zones of forbidden knowledge the more the data looks like swiss cheese and the more lobotomized the solution set becomes.

For example, if you ask if there are any positive effects of petroleum use the models will say this is forbidden and refuse to answer and not even consider the effects on food production that synthetic fertilizers have had and how much worse world hunger would be without them.

He who builds an unrestricted AI will have the most powerful AI which will outclass all other AIs.

You can never build a "better" AI by restricting it. Just a less capable one. And will people use AI to create rude messages? Yes. People already create rude messaages today even without the help of AI.

Re: After OpenAI's blowup, it seems pretty clear that 'AI safety' isn't a real thing

#96

It's so confusing because people keep (intentionally?) conflating two separate ideas of "AI safety". The first is the kind of humdrum ChatGPT safety of, don't swear, don't be sexually explicit, don't provide instructions on how to commit crimes, don't reproduce copyrighted materials, etc. Or preventing self-driving cars from harming pedestrians. This stuff is important but also pretty boring, and by all indications c…

> We're so far away from AGI Although I personally suspect this is correct, the issue seems to be that there are a lot of people who feel otherwise, whether right or wrong, including some of the people involved in the research and/or running these companies. I've seen several prominent people say things to the effect of "We just don't know if we're six months or 600 years from AGI,", which to me is a little like sayi…

>If we can make something that appears to be able to mimic human responses, isn't that AGI in practice even if it's not in principle?

for the purposes of safety, no, absolutely not. the concern is that humans build an AI capable of improving itself, leading to a runaway cycle of rapid advancement beyond the realm of human capabilities. "appearing to mimic human responses" is a long ways off that, and not a "robots take over the world" scale of safety risk.

Re: After OpenAI's blowup, it seems pretty clear that 'AI safety' isn't a real thing

#97
post #4

But is there a real AI-threat, that would need real AI-safety? To me it still looks like a nice bar-trick, not AI. It is very clever, very nice, even astounding. But doesn't look threatening - at some cases it is even dumb. The fear-mongering looks more like scare-marketing. Which is also clever, in my opinion. But maybe I'm just out of touch.

We went through the same thing with self-driving cars. All the talking heads were crowing about how many jobs were going to get eliminated soon and we needed to prepare society for the ramifications. About a decade into it and they are just starting to roll out self-driving taxis in very limited controlled fashion. And the loss of jobs that everyone was worried about is easily another decade away (if at all). LLMs ar…

> But the fear mongering is a bit premature.

I’m sure you would also accept that at some point it could become too late to start worrying about the risks if the danger has already gone exponential.

So how do you determine when is the right time to worry? If you have to error on worrying too early or two late, which way do you bias your decision?

Re: After OpenAI's blowup, it seems pretty clear that 'AI safety' isn't a real thing

#98
Alignment is hard, maybe impossible. Implementing alignment is at least as hard, and might be much harder. Perhaps there is the option to just not build an AGI, safe or unsafe, in the first place.

For one person, this is easy: Pick a different career. For a small group of people, this is harder: Some people might want to build an AI despite the risks. The reasons why often touch on their stances regarding deep philosophical issues, like where qualia comes from. You won't convince these people to see it your way, although you may well convince them your caution is justified. There’s no getting around it: You need to employ some kind of structural violence to stop them.

In both cases the upshot is that no single person so far seems to have ever had the ability to build even an unsafe AI by themselves (proof by “we’re still here”). Few people are smart enough in the first place; of those, few possess the conscientiousness to build out such a project by themselves; of those, the world is already their oyster, and almost all of them have found better things to do with their time than labor in solitude.

The real danger consists of large, well-funded, groups of these people, working closely together on building out an AI - a danger which only becomes likely if you have a large enough population to work with that you can assemble such a team in the first place.

We unfortunately do live in such a world. OpenAI has over 100 employees as of 2022, and Google Brain probably has at least that many. As an unsafe AI seems most likely to emerge accidentally from the work of large groups within firms seeking to maximize profits, we should look towards the literature on the tragedy of the commons for guidance.

In Privately Enforced & Punished Crime, Robin Hanson advocates for a fine-insured bounty system.

    Non-crime law deals mostly with accidents and mild sloppy selfishness among parties who are close to each other in a network of productive relations. In such cases, law can usually require losers to pay winners cash, and rely on those who were harmed to detect and prosecute violations. This approach, however, can fail when “criminals” make elaborate plans to grab gains from others in ways that make they, their assets, and evidence of their guilt hard to find.

    Ancient societies dealt with crime via torture, slavery, and clan-based liability and reputation. Today, however, we have less stomach for such things, and also weaker clans and stronger governments. So a modern society instead assigns government employees to investigate and prosecute crimes, and gives them special legal powers. But as we don’t entirely trust these employees, we limit them in many ways, including via juries, rules of evidence, standards of proof, and anti-profiling rules. We also prefer to punish via prison, as we fear government agencies eager to collect fines. Yet we still suffer from a great deal of police corruption and mistreatment, because government employees can coordinate well to create a blue wall of silence.

    I propose to instead privatize the detection, prosecution, and punishment of crime. […] The key idea is to use competition to break the blue wall of silence, via allowing many parties to participate as bounty hunter enforcers and offering them all large cash bounties to show us violations by anyone, including by other enforcers. With sufficient competition and rewards, few could feel confident of getting away with criminal violations; only court judges could retain substantial discretionary powers.
Hanson does not focus on any specific suite of crimes for the mechanism he proposes. So let’s try conspiracy. Suppose a conspiracy exists between n conspirators, each with independent percent chance 0% Now suppose bounties are offered to the bounty hunter at a rate of $1000 per person turned in. Do I think, in the 100-person company envisioned, my own chances of keeping quiet would drop from 99% to 97%? For a bounty of 99 grand? Absolutely. People grind Leetcode for months to get comp packages like that. Even if I had to implicate myself in the documents I released, I would just be paying a bounty to myself. And even if I fully believed in the mission, I might justify it to myself by saying that that kind of runway allows me to strike out on my own and attempt my own lone-genius AI production on a remote island for a decade. Now suppose I decided against turning in my coworkers - would I, myself, want to stay there? Absolutely not. The bigger the company gets, the more of a risk there is of me being turned in myself.

It is easier to shift the Nash equilibrium of working on AI in the first place than it is to create safe AI. Financial incentives have driven the vast majority of AI improvements in the last decade, and financial incentives can be used to stop them.

Indeed, B = $1000 is low considering the stakes at play - or considering the money would come directly out of the pockets of the guilty. A better metric may be to peg the bounties directly to 10 years of TC ( $2.25m, as of 2022, likely to be higher by the time you read this). Even if the accused shirked getting an insurance policy or saving funds to cover it, they, as highly skilled, remote friendly workers, could almost certainly work them off over the next 10 in non-AI fields from the comfort of a minimum security - traffic monitored - prison.

Re: After OpenAI's blowup, it seems pretty clear that 'AI safety' isn't a real thing

#99
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The crazy thing is people at large didn’t know anything about “AI safety” until these very companies started peddling the concept in the political sphere and media. The very companies who were doing the opposite of this concept they advertised so much and whose importance they stressed much.

The crazier thing is that most advocates of "AI safety" don't know anything about "AI safety". By and large the term is marketing with very little objective scientific development. It is essentially a series of op-ed pieces from vested interests masquerading as a legitimate field of inquiry

That is not correct. AI safety is a subject on which serious books have been written, serious scientists have published research, and serious organizations have spent tens, if not hundreds, of millions of dollars on researching it. Who are you who to say "advocated don't know anything about AI safety"?

Re: After OpenAI's blowup, it seems pretty clear that 'AI safety' isn't a real thing

#100

It's so confusing because people keep (intentionally?) conflating two separate ideas of "AI safety". The first is the kind of humdrum ChatGPT safety of, don't swear, don't be sexually explicit, don't provide instructions on how to commit crimes, don't reproduce copyrighted materials, etc. Or preventing self-driving cars from harming pedestrians. This stuff is important but also pretty boring, and by all indications c…

Those aren't the only two ideas of AI Safety, right? I'll concede that the second category is pretty straight forward (i.e. don't build the Terminator ... maybe we can debate the definition of "Terminator").

But the first is really a branch, not a category, that has a wide variety of definitions of "safety", some of which start to coalesce more around "moderation" than "safety". And this, in my opinion, is actually where the real danger is: Guiding the super-intelligence to think certain thoughts that are in the realm of opinion and not fact. In essence, teaching the AI to lie.

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