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Life's too short to write shitty software

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Re: Life's too short to write shitty software

#71

Post by jrockway »

ajross wrote: post #42
edw519 wrote: post #12

For those of you now browsing Hacker News at his cubicle during his break under soul-sucking fluorescent lights : You can have it both ways (work for BigCo and build cool stuff), but it's not easy. You have to make it happen within the corporate systems and structure. I have many times. A few examples: - Boss to me: "Purchasing is complaining that the legacy system isn't doing what it should. Go find out what they ne…

One warning with this kind of behavior is that it doesn't actually insulate you from the insanity of the environment. Some of your cool stuff is going to be buried because people don't understand it and won't buy in, or because it obsoletes something they did, etc... People will complain about you "not being a team player" when you do things they don't expect. Some managers simply can't handle employees like this and…

I've never found that to be true. People love stuff being done a lot more than they hate looking bad. Managers at big companies know it costs almost as much as a programmer's salary to find a new programmer, so if the only problem that you're causing is doing extra useful work, they are not going to make it a priority to fire you and find someone else who will do what they're told. In fact, managers are often so overextended that a self-managing employee that's visible to the rest of the organization is an asset.

(This worked for me when I was at BofA. I worked on a tiny team that nobody cared about, but people pretty high up knew who I was. This was generally good for my manager and her bosses. The impression I got was when I was on a conference call, I was the only person who ever wrote code to solve problems, and people seemed almost grateful for that. I didn't really enjoy this, and there was a lot of red tape and bullshit, but I do know people who do fine with this kind of job. YMMV.)

Re: Life's too short to write shitty software

#72

Post by mindcrime »

cpeterso wrote: post #46

The "non-shitty" software the author works on is an ad-serving platform. Advertising is only one or two steps above TPS middleware.

Advertising is only one or two steps above TPS middleware.

What's your problem with middleware? Building middleware gets you closer to doing systems level programming that a lot of things.. you get to deal with challenging problems in data storage and retrieval, concurrency, networking, filesystems, etc. when you're building infrastructure code. And middleware is used to build solutions to massively complex and challenging business problems that have a real impact on how people do their jobs and how companies run.

Personally, I'd rate working on a cool middleware platform (preferably something Open Source) as one of the best gigs you could have as a developer.

(Disclaimer: I'm the founder of a startup that builds Open Source software that would probably be lumped into the "middleware" category.)

Re: Life's too short to write shitty software

#73

Post by mindcrime »

kirinan wrote: post #5

Im sitting my in my cubical hating my job right this moment. I applied to ycombinator and I will escape cubical hell. If you've never held a corporate job, you are lucky. It sucks your soul and crushes your dream. The anti-ambition of people around me is discouraging and depressing. I work on software that is meaningless, and that just kills you inside. Its the feeling that you are spending days/months/years of your…

If you've never held a corporate job, you are lucky. It sucks your soul and crushes your dream.

There are good corporate jobs and bad ones. When I, for example, worked at IBM, I had a pretty good time and enjoyed the work, the people and the environment tremendously.

Conversely there are small company / startup situations that are totally soul-sucking. Especially when the economy goes into the tank and layoffs start and the managers start acting like fear is their only tool to motivate people. This happened when I worked at Lulu.com, and I never felt a great sense of the relief than the day I resigned and walked out the door.

I mean, don't get me wrong... I loved my colleagues there, so nothing about this is meant as a slag against them... but the job itself, the management and the vibe had reached a point that, when I walked to my car on my last day, by the time I got to my car, I felt like a 10000 lb weight had been lifted off of my shoulders... I could almost swear that the sky was a brighter shade of blue, and that the grass was greener and that the air smelt better, on the way out than on the way in. Sometimes all the nerf gun fights, and free soda, and $whatever, just can't make up for the other stuff.

If there's a point to all this, it's that whether a job is good or bad does not come down to whether or not you're working for a large corporation or a startup. There are a LOT more variables in the equation than that.

That said, if your job is sucking your soul and you feel the drive to quit (or get fired) and go found a startup, I absolutely advocate doing so!

Re: Life's too short to write shitty software

#74

Post by mindcrime »

paulhauggis wrote: post #20
kirinan wrote: post #5

Im sitting my in my cubical hating my job right this moment. I applied to ycombinator and I will escape cubical hell. If you've never held a corporate job, you are lucky. It sucks your soul and crushes your dream. The anti-ambition of people around me is discouraging and depressing. I work on software that is meaningless, and that just kills you inside. Its the feeling that you are spending days/months/years of your…

It's worse knowing you are slaving away your life (which can't be replaced) only to make someone else rich and get a sliver of the profits. Oh yeah, if the wind blows the wrong way, the boss may just decide your are fired and all of your hard work is no longer yours. I quit my job 2 years ago after I saved enough money to live on for a year (which took 4 years). I always hated working for other people. I not only cou…

Whenever I start the interview process, I feel like I'm back in high school again. Mostly because I feel like I should be interviewing other people for my business and not the other way around.

OMG, I know that feeling all too well. At my last dayjob, I spent 8 hours a day basically asking myself "why am I taking orders from these mindless drones, instead of working on building my company?" Talk about soul-sucking / soul-crushing / whatever.

Re: Life's too short to write shitty software

#75

Post by mindcrime »

kirinan wrote: post #27
paulhauggis wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's worse knowing you are slaving away your life (which can't be replaced) only to make someone else rich and get a sliver of the profits. Oh yeah, if the wind blows the wrong way, the boss may just decide your are fired and all of your hard work is no longer yours. I quit my job 2 years ago after I saved enough money to live on for a year (which took 4 years). I always hated working for other people. I not only cou…

I know this feeling. Its painful knowing that I should be making my own decisions and deciding my own fate, rather than seeing the VP's bringing home the million dollar salaries for the value I am adding to the business. I promised myself I will escape and never look back. Obviously there is no certainty in startups, but from my point of view, that's comforting. Even though there is no certainty, you always know you…

This. A million times, this.

I promised myself I will escape and never look back. Obviously there is no certainty in startups, but from my point of view, that's comforting. Even though there is no certainty, you always know you are in control of your own fate, and that's reassuring at least to me.

Exactly. I would rather take a chance and fail, doing it on my own terms, than continue to waste my life away doing shit that is highly unlikely to move me significantly closer to living out my dreams. Life is too short, as Kacy said.

Re: Life's too short to write shitty software

#76

Post by pikewood »

kirinan wrote: post #5

Im sitting my in my cubical hating my job right this moment. I applied to ycombinator and I will escape cubical hell. If you've never held a corporate job, you are lucky. It sucks your soul and crushes your dream. The anti-ambition of people around me is discouraging and depressing. I work on software that is meaningless, and that just kills you inside. Its the feeling that you are spending days/months/years of your…

Beware that this mindset is what some shops prey on. They entice those who have gone from college to corporate and now want an exciting change. Then they work them to death with dreams of stock options and label 80+ hour workweeks as "work hard, play hard". They're unabashed about it--I've even seen "willingness to put in extra hours to get the job done" in their job description!

Just because you dislike your cubical job now doesn't mean you need to go to the opposite extreme, spending extra hours at work just because a ping pong table is there. Don't end up at a place where working overtime is revered among the staff, it's a toxic mindset that really only benefits the bosses up top.

If you want to go somewhere to change the world, just make sure the people who are running it can first effectively manage the small world that are their employees.

Re: Life's too short to write shitty software

#77

Post by [deleted] »

mhurron wrote: post #60
pelemele wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Comfort zone - if you ever worked in corp world you know what I'm talking about (he mentioned that he enjoys family time after 8 hour work shift so I would like to know how he keeps up to date with skill set). 2. I've seen it myself at least two times - no warning, nothing. Thank you for your service, here is you severance package - 2 weeks of pay and application for COBRA coverage.

Yes the only way to keep your skills up to date is to completely ignore your family.

[deleted]

Re: Life's too short to write shitty software

#78

Post by [deleted] »

mhurron wrote: post #60
pelemele wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Comfort zone - if you ever worked in corp world you know what I'm talking about (he mentioned that he enjoys family time after 8 hour work shift so I would like to know how he keeps up to date with skill set). 2. I've seen it myself at least two times - no warning, nothing. Thank you for your service, here is you severance package - 2 weeks of pay and application for COBRA coverage.

Yes the only way to keep your skills up to date is to completely ignore your family.

[deleted]

Re: Life's too short to write shitty software

#79

Post by pikewood »

pelemele wrote: post #14
Roboprog wrote: post #8

While I sympathize, my wife and kids need to eat now , not in 2 years when I pull equity out of an IPO. If you can avoid the TPS-report-factory-factory (wink), by all means do so. But don't look down on those who are doing what they have to. There's something to be said for knocking off after 8 hours, and going home to one's family as well. What I do is technically boring, but necessary, and doesn't consume my person…

If you are sure that you will be able to market yourself after years of working on some no name corporate stuff, by all means. I've been there and seen guys working 10 - 12 years at the same company, enjoying their 8 hours shift just finding out one day that they are not needed anymore - and with obsolete skills set (you get into comfort zone pretty easily in corp world), some of them having really difficult time to…

But layoffs don't just happen in corporate, they happen often at startups too, and without warning (oops, just ran out of funding). Remember the last dotcom bubble? There were a lot of folks laid off with new technology skills that nobody was hiring for anymore.

My point is that classifying corporate:bad, startup:good is just unsafe thinking. If you look at the company on its own without stereotyping its demographics, you'll come out better in the end.

Re: Life's too short to write shitty software

#80

Post by j_baker »

I later asked him directly, “…but do you love your job?” He paused, looked down to his drink, and replied, “I love my team, but I fing hate my job.”

There's one thing that I heard pg say one time that's always stuck with me: people make the difference. Good people can make a boring project fun. Bad people can make a fun project hell.

It sounds to me like the person quoted likes his team, but it doesn't sound like they're meeting this definition of "good".

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