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My north star for the future of AI

theatlantic.com

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Re: My north star for the future of AI

#31

Post by Terr_ »

Barrin92 wrote: post #25
Terr_ wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> engineers have failed to communicate how picking the ethical options can create value for key stakeholders. Does the primary responsibility for that really fall on engineers in the first place? It just feels a little victim blame-y to me. Shouldn't most of the culpability fall on those stakeholders who don't want to be convinced because it means lower feature-velocity or less investor-profit?

Primary? Debatable. But you do have responsibility for what you build, who you build it for and what and who you enable with your expertise. And engineers do have plenty of that, so they have plenty of reponsibility too.

Oh, everyone has some contributory involvement, but I find it hard to imagine the same kind of standard being widely applied to other employee-experts in other industries.

I mean, do we blame food chemists for "failing to convince stakeholders" that the candy-company should use ethically sourced fair-trade chocolate and less sugar? Or mechanical engineers for "failing to convince stakeholders" that the oil-company should avoid drilling in areas that are environmentally-sensitive or controlled by warlords of questionable legitimacy?

No, we recognize that a laborer having specialized-skills doesn't automatically mean the corporate-machine is interested in their other opinions. (Unless they're visibly documenting problems that could someday harm the company in a potential lawsuit, in which case they tend to get laid off.)

Re: My north star for the future of AI

#32

Post by nitwit005 »

PradeetPatel wrote: post #18
threeseed wrote: post #16

I wonder if she realises that almost everyone in SV has gone to university and most have attended at least one or two ethics classes during that time. Because ultimately people will be driven by the same thing that drove previous generations: money, power, fame, success, ego etc. And no amount of university lectures with enlightened scientists and their superior values will change that.

The main issue here is that the engineers have failed to communicate how picking the ethical options can create value for key stakeholders. Until that can be achieved, alternative options that generate more value will always be prioritised. Such is only the logical turn of events.

If they cared, they could sit down with the engineers and make sure they understand, or have one of their underlings do that and make a summary for them.

They generally don't care about the opinions of engineers that much, except to estimate the cost and practicality of different ideas.

Re: My north star for the future of AI

#34

Post by nitwit005 »

fatherzine wrote: post #26
PradeetPatel wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main issue here is that the engineers have failed to communicate how picking the ethical options can create value for key stakeholders. Until that can be achieved, alternative options that generate more value will always be prioritised. Such is only the logical turn of events.

picking the ethical option will not create financial value for key stakeholders. the metrics are misaligned. smart and wise people spent 2000 years seeking an workaround for this problem. there is none. there are only convoluted excuses.

People are annoyed that you're correct.

If picking the ethical choice maximized corporate profits, the Earth would have become a utopia a hundreds of years ago.

Re: My north star for the future of AI

#35

Post by swatcoder »

PradeetPatel wrote: post #18
threeseed wrote: post #16

I wonder if she realises that almost everyone in SV has gone to university and most have attended at least one or two ethics classes during that time. Because ultimately people will be driven by the same thing that drove previous generations: money, power, fame, success, ego etc. And no amount of university lectures with enlightened scientists and their superior values will change that.

The main issue here is that the engineers have failed to communicate how picking the ethical options can create value for key stakeholders. Until that can be achieved, alternative options that generate more value will always be prioritised. Such is only the logical turn of events.

Yes, the irony is that corporations (and all other collectives) already represent AGI in that they can pass all the same tests and assume all the same roles as any human, when given the same kind of accomodations we give to these technological systems.

And we've already let those AGI align themselves predominantly on "profit"

In their worry about a new AGI that they may never actually discover, the apocolypts are being stymied by the one that's already there and that's already working to take over the world.

Re: My north star for the future of AI

#36

Post by contrarian1234 »

Talent being siphoned off into industry is an understandable and interesting issue. I didn't expect the shift to ethics at the end. I can't help but snort when someone from an advertising company talks about ethics.

You're part of a machine making billions off of exploiting human psychology to push products and get people to click ads. She's maybe not wrong about the issues with AI.. but there are way bigger problems and lower hanging fruit than vague biases in machine models. It's like worrying about if the coffee beans in Google's coffee machines are ethically sourced

At the end of the day, as exemplified by ad companies, people are gunna go make money ethically or not. If you could legally turn babies into cheeseburgers someone will do it. Engineers are not the right people to deal with ethics. That's what laws and regulations are for. You don't just hope and pray the engineers are nice people. That's a naiive way to operate society

Re: My north star for the future of AI

#37

Post by nextworddev »

oska wrote: post #17
robwwilliams wrote: post #14

Beautifully written, heart-and-mind felt, but already reads like a belated plea to bring humanity to computer science, AI research, and big business. All when liberal art universities are losing their liberal arts. One cannot really disagree (I cannot anyway), but what pragmatic actions can one take—-especially after moving from Stanford to Google. Yes, Li has been in and fed the belly of the beast. Now what?

> especially after moving from Stanford to Google I understand that she only worked at Google during a sabbatical from Stanford (Jan '17 to Sept '18) and that she's back at Stanford now. [1] It's a little bit confusing with her writing in the present tense about being at Google but I think that's because this article is composed of excerpts from her recent book, so they're excerpting a bit from that time period. [1]…

I believe she left Google only after some controversy

Re: My north star for the future of AI

#38

Post by upwardbound »

PradeetPatel wrote: post #18
threeseed wrote: post #16

I wonder if she realises that almost everyone in SV has gone to university and most have attended at least one or two ethics classes during that time. Because ultimately people will be driven by the same thing that drove previous generations: money, power, fame, success, ego etc. And no amount of university lectures with enlightened scientists and their superior values will change that.

The main issue here is that the engineers have failed to communicate how picking the ethical options can create value for key stakeholders. Until that can be achieved, alternative options that generate more value will always be prioritised. Such is only the logical turn of events.

AI NotKillEveryoneism benefits everybody, even shareholders.

( This is the punny name that OpenAI employees use to refer to what's officially known as AI Existential Safety, explained here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38374739#38375199 )

Re: My north star for the future of AI

#39

Post by trees101 »

swatcoder wrote: post #35
PradeetPatel wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main issue here is that the engineers have failed to communicate how picking the ethical options can create value for key stakeholders. Until that can be achieved, alternative options that generate more value will always be prioritised. Such is only the logical turn of events.

Yes, the irony is that corporations (and all other collectives) already represent AGI in that they can pass all the same tests and assume all the same roles as any human, when given the same kind of accomodations we give to these technological systems. And we've already let those AGI align themselves predominantly on "profit" In their worry about a new AGI that they may never actually discover, the apocolypts are bei…

this is a perceptive comment.

There's a lot of conversation around this, one term used is "Egregore"

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IQ2h7FYLTwg&t=8m30s

https://youtu.be/FY4Fil_nB_c?t=4592

Re: My north star for the future of AI

#40

Post by BrenBarn »

> I’d seen the consequences of that over and over: brilliant technologists who could build just about anything but who stared blankly when the question of the ethics of their work was broached.

This is something I've seen as well, in contexts much more remote from the nerve centers like Google or even Stanford. It's deeply disturbing.

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