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Stuxnet worm reportedly planted by Iranian double agent using memory stick

arstechnica.com

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Re: Stuxnet worm reportedly planted by Iranian double agent using memory stick

#71

Post by berntb »

barrkel wrote: post #66
berntb wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>, I'm not arguing that it is right that Iran gets nuclear arms. Sorry, but you do sound like you have an agenda. You made a claim that the Iran junta won't be insane, I showed it is wrong by trivial historical examples. Now you make a different claim. [Edit: And ignored my other point.] Edit: If I should bother to answer the new point, about what will happen: Saudi Arabia Turkey and others will start high speed nuc…

What agenda do you think I have? That I want Iran to be nuclear armed? I do not; but I think the alternatives are worse (nuclear strikes on Iran, US invasion of Iran; I think a conventional strike on Iran would have a similar effect to the Israeli one on Iraq in 1981). Please tell me what you think my agenda is before discussing anything further. It's a pretty serious accusation.

I motivated that statement. You don't have anything to say about that, either?

Edit: Sigh, the "answer" below just repeats the previous, it is still not touching what I wrote. AGAIN:

1. I killed an argument (rational is just not in "kings" historically) -- you just ignored it.

2. I noted that this would probably result in a nuclear race with at least the traditional competitors of Iran -- Turkey and SA.

3. This religious junta will almost certainly torture, rape and oppress the Iranian population as long as there is oil, without external intervention.

I think you will just repeat your position while ignoring everything else. Hence, an agenda of some sort that you want to get out.

Re: Stuxnet worm reportedly planted by Iranian double agent using memory stick

#72

Post by andrewfelix »

tkahn6 wrote: post #67
andrewfelix wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no subtlety to what Israel is doing. They aren't encouraging paranoia or planting evidence, they're literally killing the scientists involved. I don't care which side of the fence you sit on, assassinating scientists for a presumed 'greater good' is awful.

Here's your subtlety: http://english.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=9010175602 > Wife of Assassinated Scientist: Annihilation of Israel "Mostafa's Ultimate Goal"

Who needs justice when there are obscure and author-less articles floating around the internet to justify the killing of civilians?

Remember this goes both ways. There are people who think American civilians assisting the occupation in Iraq are legitimate targets. I am not one of those people.

Re: Stuxnet worm reportedly planted by Iranian double agent using memory stick

#73

Post by tkahn6 »

andrewfelix wrote: post #72
tkahn6 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's your subtlety: http://english.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=9010175602 > Wife of Assassinated Scientist: Annihilation of Israel "Mostafa's Ultimate Goal"

Who needs justice when there are obscure and author-less articles floating around the internet to justify the killing of civilians? Remember this goes both ways. There are people who think American civilians assisting the occupation in Iraq are legitimate targets. I am not one of those people.

You're clearly not aware of this but Fars News Agency is essentially a mouthpiece for the Iranian regime. This is a propaganda piece.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fars_News_Agency

Re: Stuxnet worm reportedly planted by Iranian double agent using memory stick

#74

Post by [deleted] »

andrewfelix wrote: post #63
micahgoulart wrote: post #9

One has to question the reason why this information was leaked now. My guess is that Israel or the US wants Iran to be paranoid about a secret agent within their nuclear facilities and go hunting for a mole. Imagine if Israel planted evidence on a prominent Iranian physicist? Good luck proving your innocence. The whole Stuxnet story would make for a great spy novel, that's for sure.

There's no subtlety to what Israel is doing. They aren't encouraging paranoia or planting evidence, they're literally killing the scientists involved. I don't care which side of the fence you sit on, assassinating scientists for a presumed 'greater good' is awful.

[deleted]

Re: Stuxnet worm reportedly planted by Iranian double agent using memory stick

#75

Post by andrewfelix »

tkahn6 wrote: post #73
andrewfelix wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who needs justice when there are obscure and author-less articles floating around the internet to justify the killing of civilians? Remember this goes both ways. There are people who think American civilians assisting the occupation in Iraq are legitimate targets. I am not one of those people.

You're clearly not aware of this but Fars News Agency is essentially a mouthpiece for the Iranian regime. This is a propaganda piece. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fars_News_Agency

Authorless? Check.

Obscure? Check.

A legitimate news source? No.

A basis to judge the value of a human life? Most definitely not.

Re: Stuxnet worm reportedly planted by Iranian double agent using memory stick

#76

Post by seclorum »

wolf550e wrote: post #32
nitrogen wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many in the US have said the same thing about Iran. When all it takes is one nuke, why should Iran wait to find out? See the hypocrisy? Existential threats work both ways. Are those US talking heads and politicians "brainwashed religious fanatics?" A more important question is why Iran('s government) wants (or claims to want) to eliminate Israel, and how to change their mind (or their government) peacefully.

Ostensibly, Iran's theocracy wants to eliminate the State of Israel (not the land itself, duh) because it's a non-Muslim occupier of Muslim land. That is what they say, and it is inline with their religious texts. Israel has never threatened to nuke anyone. It has stated that it is preparing for a potential MAD situation, but that's not a threat - it's a defensive move. Israel does not state that Iran has no right to…

>I don't think Iran can legitimately claim they have an existential fear of Israel and any attack on Israel is in their own defense.

300+ Israeli nuclear weapons, undeclared, and Israel not a signing member of the NPT pact. This is more than an existential threat - its a real threat of destruction. Why else would the Zionists invest so heavily in these weapons?

I think that Israeli Nuclear Weapons are quite a valid threat towards Iran, and every single other life on the planet.

Israel should sign, ratify, and obey the NPT. They should declare their nuclear inventory (which includes subs, by the way.. far more threat to Europe than Iran.)

Until Israel does this, it can not exert rights over who should, and should not, have nuclear weapons, and any posturing over the 'threat' posed by Iran is simply an effort to obfuscate the Israeli threat, itself, to the world at large.

(Iran is a party to the NPT, btw.)

Re: Stuxnet worm reportedly planted by Iranian double agent using memory stick

#77

Post by Retric »

barrkel wrote: post #53
InclinedPlane wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is silly thinking. The only thing that a MAD based stalemate is better than is a nuclear holocaust. Otherwise it's worse than every other option. The Cold War was better than WWIII but it wasn't something to be cavalier about, over a hundred million people died due to the oppression in communist countries, and a far larger number of people's lives were irrevocably damaged by over a half century of tragedy. Even…

I think well over 100 million people would have died if the US could have attacked the USSR in conventional warfare, if nuclear weapons had never been invented; actually, I think the USSR would have overrun Europe, the US would have been driven back, and communism would have had even more victims to feast upon. A nuclear armed Iran is inevitable, IMO. The only means of trying to stop it - bigger and bigger threats, s…

Less than 100 million people died in WWII, and Russia had fewer allies after WWII than Germany did. Civilians killed totaled from 40 to 52 million, including 13 to 20 million from war-related disease and famine. Total military dead: from 22 to 25 million, including deaths in captivity of about 5 million prisoners of war.

Let's put this in perspective. At the end of WWII America was producing 50% of the WORLDS manufactured goods. Russia had fewer allies, a vastly inferior conventional Army, and infrastructure from WWII all the way to it's fall. America has had sufficient nuclear weapons to be concerned about a large scale invasion and never really geared up for a large scale war. So, America had basically no reason to attack Russia or fully mobilize as long as the rest of the world did not become communist they had little interest in what happened.

However, after WWII Russia was paranoid with good reason. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:World_War_II_Casualties2.s... Close to 13% of their population had just died and they had little interest in being so weak that a country could decide to attack them while in the middle of a war with several other countries.

Re: Stuxnet worm reportedly planted by Iranian double agent using memory stick

#78

Post by philwelch »

andrewfelix wrote: post #63
micahgoulart wrote: post #9

One has to question the reason why this information was leaked now. My guess is that Israel or the US wants Iran to be paranoid about a secret agent within their nuclear facilities and go hunting for a mole. Imagine if Israel planted evidence on a prominent Iranian physicist? Good luck proving your innocence. The whole Stuxnet story would make for a great spy novel, that's for sure.

There's no subtlety to what Israel is doing. They aren't encouraging paranoia or planting evidence, they're literally killing the scientists involved. I don't care which side of the fence you sit on, assassinating scientists for a presumed 'greater good' is awful.

That's a disingenuous argument. If you're building nuclear weapons for a hostile government, you're as much a target as anyone else. It doesn't matter if you're a scientist or a solider.

Re: Stuxnet worm reportedly planted by Iranian double agent using memory stick

#79

Post by philwelch »

andrewfelix wrote: post #72
tkahn6 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's your subtlety: http://english.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=9010175602 > Wife of Assassinated Scientist: Annihilation of Israel "Mostafa's Ultimate Goal"

Who needs justice when there are obscure and author-less articles floating around the internet to justify the killing of civilians? Remember this goes both ways. There are people who think American civilians assisting the occupation in Iraq are legitimate targets. I am not one of those people.

> American civilians assisting the occupation in Iraq

That's a euphemism for "private military contractors", which is a euphemism for "mercenaries". Legitimate targets? As much as any, really.

Re: Stuxnet worm reportedly planted by Iranian double agent using memory stick

#80

Post by tkahn6 »

andrewfelix wrote: post #75
tkahn6 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're clearly not aware of this but Fars News Agency is essentially a mouthpiece for the Iranian regime. This is a propaganda piece. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fars_News_Agency

Authorless? Check. Obscure? Check. A legitimate news source? No. A basis to judge the value of a human life? Most definitely not.

Hmm ok let's get more concrete.

It would have been unjustifiable in your view for Japan to have assassinated Oppenheimer during his time at Los Alamos, yes or no?

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