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My Free Speech Means You Have to Shut Up

popehat.substack.com

21–30 of 189 posts

Re: My Free Speech Means You Have to Shut Up

#21

" In my view, too many critics of “cancel culture” are recklessly promoting not the speech of the powerless, but the censorious resentment of the powerful." Yep, to often when i see these anti woke, cultur war, anti cancel culture critics. What they are actually doing is attacking people's free speech and defending the authoritarians that are actually trying to limit speech and other rights. They convinced themselves…

Let me divert from Musk specifically for a moment. The "anti woke cancel culture critics" are in fact concerned with the inorganic, overwhelming influence that a specific family of ideologies has today over the means of modern communication. Observe the similarity with the left themselves, who are concerned with the inorganic, overwhelming influence that a specific class of wealthy people have today over the means of…

I'm just sitting here as a small-l libertarian that's in tune with the concept of logical reductions (eg Turing completeness, NP-completeness, etc), wondering when people will wise up to the idea that sufficiently coercive corporations are indistinguishable from government and vice-versa.

Arguing over this false dichotomy uses up all the air in the room, when we should actually be focusing on the amount of control being exerted. The richest person in the world has plenty of options to speak his mind, regardless of big advertisers no longer doing business with him due to his apparent views. Whereas I'm actually more supportive of the ability of the original poster to post his racist diatribe while not being censored by Twitter [0], if for nothing else than so these racist shitheads don't think too hard before outing themselves.

[0] Not that this is even a concern with the current "X" for this particular type of content.

Re: My Free Speech Means You Have to Shut Up

#22
Disturbingly myopic. As if the problem were simple! It's not. People will self censure if they fear retribution. This is particularly true when that retribution takes the form of ostracism, personal or professional. This used to be very rare! Now it is common. The concern about "first amendment rights" are a total red herring. Who cares about the law? Ostracism doesn't and never needed a trial.

What this boils down to is defending drum-head trials where the penalty is ostracism. To defend such a thing you have to minimize the outcome, claim that ostracism isn't so bad, or you have to generally agree with the outcome of these trials as "obvious". Both of these avenues are cruel and pernicious. There is little more painful than ostracism, and there is little or no justice in these judgements. At the very least, we all need to agree to a Geneva Convention on speech war where fine, we can personally ostracize someone but we cannot, will not put pressure on others to ostracize someone, too. That second-order pressure goes viral, spirals out of control, and its not fair not right and it's not just, no matter what your politics.

Re: My Free Speech Means You Have to Shut Up

#23

" In my view, too many critics of “cancel culture” are recklessly promoting not the speech of the powerless, but the censorious resentment of the powerful." Yep, to often when i see these anti woke, cultur war, anti cancel culture critics. What they are actually doing is attacking people's free speech and defending the authoritarians that are actually trying to limit speech and other rights. They convinced themselves…

> What they are actually doing is attacking people's free speech and defending the authoritarians that are actually trying to limit speech and other rights.

Huh, I'm lost? Can you cite an example?

To be clear, "___ is a lunatic and advocating for bad things" is a criticism.

"___ is a lunatic and their message should not be permitted" is limiting speech

Re: My Free Speech Means You Have to Shut Up

#24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our "public spheres" are in fact not public, but rather are private property. Advertisers having control over them is a consequence of this. If you actually go into town IRL and talk in the public square, no advertiser will be able to silence you because the public square is actually public. Or if you use an actually public means of communication like the postal service, again you won't be cut out because some corpor…

Public sphere as in the places and platforms hosting most public conversations these days. I am aware they are privately owned.

That Rubicon was crossed long before mass general public internet forums - Mall Cops policing privately owned shopping malls were enforcing the control of the spaces where most of the public convened .. particularly in smaller population centres that had seen their local shopping areas razed to the ground by price cutting mega stores.

Re: My Free Speech Means You Have to Shut Up

#25
Question I would have for Popehat would be whether a DoS attack is speech or not. If it is, why isn't it protected, because it's inline messaging on the medium it uses and is therefore like any other mediated expression. If it isn't, what is it about attacking the medium and participants that isn't speech?

The problem with the cancel culture people is their "working the ref," strategy launches a DoS attack on the participants in targeted discourses. I'm thinking what the equivalent is, like maybe LibsofTikTok, which is public mockery that likely crosses over into similar cancel-culture consequences, where there is a strong argument to be made that it is incitement. However, I don't think one can defend cancelations in principle without also defending LibsOfTikTok, or much worse, something like 4chan or kiwifarms, because if you are defending the incitement of a cancel mob, you're also defending one that uses mockery and that also results in some lunatic taking it too far.

Re: My Free Speech Means You Have to Shut Up

#26

" In my view, too many critics of “cancel culture” are recklessly promoting not the speech of the powerless, but the censorious resentment of the powerful." Yep, to often when i see these anti woke, cultur war, anti cancel culture critics. What they are actually doing is attacking people's free speech and defending the authoritarians that are actually trying to limit speech and other rights. They convinced themselves…

Let me divert from Musk specifically for a moment. The "anti woke cancel culture critics" are in fact concerned with the inorganic, overwhelming influence that a specific family of ideologies has today over the means of modern communication. Observe the similarity with the left themselves, who are concerned with the inorganic, overwhelming influence that a specific class of wealthy people have today over the means of…

Could you please be more vague?

What “specific family of ideologies”?

What “specific narrative”?

If it is so specific, surely you could say what it is…

Re: My Free Speech Means You Have to Shut Up

#28
post #4

Musk's incoherent stance aside, the author is afaik a lawyer, and has a habit of conflating the ideal of free speech, with the 1st amendment. Placing advertisers and billion-dollar corporations as arbiters of what may enter the public sphere is counter to the spirit of free speech, even if it complies with the 1st amendment. There may be no simple legal means to prevent it (to get ahead of the usual "oh so you want g…

Yeah, no. You can say a lot of things about Ken White, but saying that he conflates the 1st Amendment and Free Speech is one thing he does not do.

There's a ton of evidence out there where he is very specific about the differences between the 1st amendment and free speech.

A 10 second google found: https://popehat.substack.com/p/our-fundamental-right-to-sham...

Re: My Free Speech Means You Have to Shut Up

#29
> Musk is also a fan of the theory that when he speaks, your criticism of him violates his rights

I hate to use such trite debate bro topics, but isn't this a motte and bailey fallacy [1]? The motte is "we're just criticising Musk" while the bailey is "we're systematically contacting all of his advertisers and letting them know that if they continue to support him then we will campaign against them as well".

The whole point of cancel culture isn't to state your objections/criticisms of ideas, it is to attack the support systems of individuals. Like, calling their employer en masse and demanding that they are fired. Or pushing their bank, their ISP, etc. to remove their ability to conduct any kind of business. Or to mass-report their social media to get them deplatformed.

To phrase this as "we're just trying to criticize, why is he so mad and why does he want to silence our criticism" is a pretty manipulative take. Even to say "if advertisers want to leave they can" is a misrepresentation - advertisers are being extorted to leave, they are doing so under some pretty extreme duress.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy

Re: My Free Speech Means You Have to Shut Up

#30
post #4

Musk's incoherent stance aside, the author is afaik a lawyer, and has a habit of conflating the ideal of free speech, with the 1st amendment. Placing advertisers and billion-dollar corporations as arbiters of what may enter the public sphere is counter to the spirit of free speech, even if it complies with the 1st amendment. There may be no simple legal means to prevent it (to get ahead of the usual "oh so you want g…

1A might not be the end-all, be-all of freedom of speech, but what Musk is trying to push here is not anywhere close to freedom of speech. At all[0]. He wants to censor his critics, and has figured the easiest way to do so is to co-opt legitimate concerns about advertiser control over the Internet and use it as evidence of him being "censored". It's a very transparent attempt to do so, and Musk's commitment to freedom of speech is laughable, so we don't need to argue where the line between advertisers' freedom of association and Musk's freedom of speech actually lies.

But if you do want to argue where that line should be, fine. I'll bite.

Advertisers absolutely have too much control over speech online. 404 Media recently published an article about how brand safety filtering has more or less defunded a lot of news coverage relating to the loss of reproductive healthcare and women's rights in America. So I can empathize with what you're saying. However, I can't think of a coherent legal argument as to what the advertisers are doing wrong.

In telecom law, we have the concept of common carrier regulation, which applies to middlemen that connect two parties together. e.g. your phone company cannot bill extra for the same phone call because it happens to be valuable to you[0]. We took a look at the balance of harms and decided that a phone network that cuts off businesses to extort money out of them is worse than the burden placed on phone networks to serve all customers, even the awful ones.

How would this apply to a situation in which the edge of the network decides they don't want to associate with you? We're not talking about ad exchanges cutting off Twitter, mind. These are individual ad buyers all looking at Musk's behavior and deciding "we don't want to give this person money because it makes us look bad if we do that". Do we force ad buyers to blind-buy ad inventory to get around this? Can that even be done? How do they deal with the potential brand damage of being forced to give money to someone that people think is a censorious antisemite? Do companies just eat the loss of goodwill or do we force people to buy from companies they hate to "maximize free speech"?

At some point we have to cut the chain of logic off, before the cure is worse than the disease.

[0] More generally, my personal opinion is that free speech should have a self-defense clause: i.e. that it should not afford speech protections to acts that are contrary to freedom of speech. I think advocating Nazi ideology would count as such an act; certainly most of not all of their ideology is a blatant middle finger to the 1st Amendment. Why protect that which wants desperately to kill you?

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