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SEC charges Kraken for operating as an unregistered securities exchange

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Re: SEC charges Kraken for operating as an unregistered securities exchange

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the security law regulates transactions, that is sufficiently enough to cover cryptographic tokens and the ways they are settled, and thats not where the SEC loses they lose because they cant articulate when they are securities and when they're not securities their theory does play into a trap you pointed out, in that there are plenty of non crypto products that function the same way - limited supply runs sold by cor…

https://www.nyse.com/publicdocs/nyse/regulation/nyse/sea34.p... You can read the act yourself, a cryptocurrency (depending on the type) is not a security by the definition provided. Nor does the cryptographic token have an issuer. Quite literally, most crypto has none of what’s defined under the SEC scope. That said, sure _some_ of the crypto tokens would could count as securities. But even then it’s not clear the ex…

I’m familiar with the act

Your interpretation is far removed from reality but I appreciate the enthusiasm

the act regulates the nature of a specific transaction and therefore does not need a description of the asset itself. It never needed to imagine crypto, or fungible orange groves as the howey test was about, or anything.

Re: SEC charges Kraken for operating as an unregistered securities exchange

#82
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This sentence is so weird for me. Why would you want to work for a company if you seemingly don’t care about their product. For money, of course. A company’s mission doesn’t pay for my groceries or rent. A substantial compensation package serves as a strong incentive to perform well. > And conversely, why would anyone ever hire someone for a role if the person looking to get hired doesn’t care about the product? Th…

Please take this as constructive criticism: telling an interviewer you’re not interested in the product and you only care about collecting a paycheck comes across as arrogant and is a huge red flag. Ultimately, people hire people they want to work with. You might be in the top 0.1% rust programmers, and I would still not hire you because of that attitude.

Most of my jobs have been deeply uninteresting at a product level. Not even the designers or product people -really- care. I suspect working on interesting projects is the exception, not the rule.

Re: SEC charges Kraken for operating as an unregistered securities exchange

#83

I feel like this won't end up going well for the SEC. This whole methodology of telling exchanges "I don't know, you figure it out" when they ask for clarity and then turning around and suing them for not figuring it out is extremely shaky legal ground.

Matt Levine I think put it best: if Bernie Madoff were to go to the SEC and ask them "I don't know how to run a Ponzi scheme legally, can you please update the guidelines to make it easier", of course the SEC is going to refuse. And the situation with cryptocurrencies seems to be broadly similar: there's actually a pretty clear answer as to what would need to be done to be fully above-the-board and legal, it's just n…

[deleted]

Re: SEC charges Kraken for operating as an unregistered securities exchange

#84
post #56

Oh, great. Right when we’re on the verge of receiving our Mt Gox payouts. Ah well, I knew it was too good to be true. The way not to be disappointed is to not get your hopes up involving money.

At least you’ll probably get some. I had a fair amount on btc-e which the government happily took.

Sorry for your loss. Truly.

Re: SEC charges Kraken for operating as an unregistered securities exchange

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Matt Levine I think put it best: if Bernie Madoff were to go to the SEC and ask them "I don't know how to run a Ponzi scheme legally, can you please update the guidelines to make it easier", of course the SEC is going to refuse. And the situation with cryptocurrencies seems to be broadly similar: there's actually a pretty clear answer as to what would need to be done to be fully above-the-board and legal, it's just n…

The SEC has no place in a free market. If people trust a company which co-mingles funds, they should be punished for misplacing their trust. Both the scammer and the scammed deserve a share of the punishment. Life naturally punishes the scammed already and teaches them a lesson at the same time... Without the help of the SEC... How good is that?! If my startup fails because I hired the wrong people, I take the full b…

Because it causes preventable harm.

Re: SEC charges Kraken for operating as an unregistered securities exchange

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Matt Levine I think put it best: if Bernie Madoff were to go to the SEC and ask them "I don't know how to run a Ponzi scheme legally, can you please update the guidelines to make it easier", of course the SEC is going to refuse. And the situation with cryptocurrencies seems to be broadly similar: there's actually a pretty clear answer as to what would need to be done to be fully above-the-board and legal, it's just n…

The SEC has no place in a free market. If people trust a company which co-mingles funds, they should be punished for misplacing their trust. Both the scammer and the scammed deserve a share of the punishment. Life naturally punishes the scammed already and teaches them a lesson at the same time... Without the help of the SEC... How good is that?! If my startup fails because I hired the wrong people, I take the full b…

In the real world, we try to have government operate law enforcement. Doesn’t always work, but it works a lot better than outsourcing law enforcement on financial scams to retail investors.

Re: SEC charges Kraken for operating as an unregistered securities exchange

#87

> The SEC alleges that Kraken intertwines the traditional services of an exchange, broker, dealer, and clearing agency without having registered any of those functions with the Commission as required by law.

I find following more troubling: > As alleged in the complaint, Kraken commingles its customers’ money with its own, including paying operational expenses directly from accounts that hold customer cash. Didn't FTX/SBF do same?

Yes, and so did MtGox and QuadrigaCX. It doesn't mean that they are unbacked but it is a huge red flag.

Re: SEC charges Kraken for operating as an unregistered securities exchange

#88
post #68

I feel like this won't end up going well for the SEC. This whole methodology of telling exchanges "I don't know, you figure it out" when they ask for clarity and then turning around and suing them for not figuring it out is extremely shaky legal ground.

Law enforcement has no obligation to explain the laws to you.

Calling crypto an investment contract is a shaky argument at best.

Re: SEC charges Kraken for operating as an unregistered securities exchange

#89
Kraken's response: https://blog.kraken.com/news/kraken-continues-to-fight-for-i...

> The complaint against Kraken alleges no fraud, no market manipulation, no customer losses due to hacking or compromised security, and no breaches of fiduciary duty. It includes big dollar amounts but does not allege a single one of those dollars is missing or misused – no ponzi scheme, no failure to maintain adequate reserves, and no failure to preserve the identity of client funds 1:1. Indeed, none of these things would be true.

> Instead, the complaint makes a technical argument: that Kraken’s business requires special securities licenses to operate because the digital assets we support are really “investment contracts.” This is incorrect as a matter of law, false as a matter of fact, and disastrous as a matter of policy.

...

> The SEC already tried this theory and a court rejected it outright. The SEC argued in that case that digital assets bought and sold on trading platforms were really securities transactions. The Federal Court for the Southern District of New York disagreed, ruling that the SEC failed entirely to satisfy the relevant legal test. The court held that the SEC’s unprecedented legal theory was contrary to the “economic reality” of such transactions. The SEC’s case against Kraken will fail, too, and for the same reasons.

> The SEC alleges that Kraken “commingled” its own funds with its clients’. This is a similar allegation already made of other crypto trading platforms. The SEC cannot and does not allege that any customer funds are missing, or any loss has occurred. Nor does it allege that any loss will occur. The complaint itself concedes that this so-called “commingling” is no more than Kraken spending fees it has already earned.

> The SEC famously argues that digital asset trading platforms like Kraken can simply “come in and register” with the agency. As most securities law experts know, there is not a single law on the books supporting this position. The SEC has promulgated no rule describing how an order in a digital asset should be matched, no guidance on how a trade should be cleared, and articulated no standards for how to broker a digital asset transaction. The allegation is hollow; there is no such thing as an exchange, broker dealer, or clearing agency for investment contracts. The SEC is demanding compliance with a regime that doesn’t exist.

Re: SEC charges Kraken for operating as an unregistered securities exchange

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Matt Levine I think put it best: if Bernie Madoff were to go to the SEC and ask them "I don't know how to run a Ponzi scheme legally, can you please update the guidelines to make it easier", of course the SEC is going to refuse. And the situation with cryptocurrencies seems to be broadly similar: there's actually a pretty clear answer as to what would need to be done to be fully above-the-board and legal, it's just n…

The SEC has no place in a free market. If people trust a company which co-mingles funds, they should be punished for misplacing their trust. Both the scammer and the scammed deserve a share of the punishment. Life naturally punishes the scammed already and teaches them a lesson at the same time... Without the help of the SEC... How good is that?! If my startup fails because I hired the wrong people, I take the full b…

The analogy isn't valid. If your startup fails because the people you hire steal from the company, you have legal recourse. If you lose money because you invest in companies that underperform, the SEC won't intervene. No markets operate with perfect information for all participants. That creates the opportunity for fraud, and governments regulate to prevent fraud. In principle this permits broader access to markets (whether this is actually true is a different subject).
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