Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing

engprax.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 159 posts

Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing

#21

Post by isilofi »

wesapien wrote: post #9

I was listening to a podcast with Jim Rutt and he said that he encouraged people to give "bad news" and to not shoot the messenger. He was also against office politics and fired people for it. I wish more companies had this culture.

I don't know about Jim Rutt, but my overall impression is that most, if not all, companies are supposedly encouraging this culture of giving "bad news" and non-retaliation. Also reinforced by the usual compliance voodoo about supposedly anonymous reporting opportunities.

I've never gained the impression that that was anything more than lip-service. The two people I know of who dared to say something were shown the door. Quietly, discreetly, done in a way so they wouldn't dare to sue.

Therefore, imho, if you do report anything, make sure it cannot be traced back to you. Or just don't, it usually isn't worth it.

Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing

#22

Post by JohnFen »

hsavit1 wrote: post #8
JohnFen wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could not agree more. We are all responsible for our actions and the results our actions cause. "I was just following orders" in no way absolves anyone of that responsibility. That you may pay a price for doing the right thing doesn't make avoiding doing it acceptable.

not everyone has the ability to quit their jobs on the spot for morality sake. there is no social safety net in america. people can't risk losing their jobs and health insurance

Sure they can. People lose their jobs without notice every day and while it's often a horrible situation, it's one that people can and do recover from.

But I'm not even really arguing that people who do bad things because they want to avoid harmful repercussions must choose differently. I'm arguing that people who do that are choosing to do something unethical, and we are what we do.

Perhaps the ethical tradeoff makes some practical sense for some -- but it's still an ethical tradeoff.

Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing

#23

Post by hanzmanner »

hsavit1 wrote: post #8
JohnFen wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could not agree more. We are all responsible for our actions and the results our actions cause. "I was just following orders" in no way absolves anyone of that responsibility. That you may pay a price for doing the right thing doesn't make avoiding doing it acceptable.

not everyone has the ability to quit their jobs on the spot for morality sake. there is no social safety net in america. people can't risk losing their jobs and health insurance

Are you talking specifically about engineering? If you have strong ethical disagreements with your current employer, start prepping for interviews. Start early. Invest 2-3 months. Starts interviewing. Sign an offer. Then quit. I don't think anyone in this thread is suggesting a sole family provider should just quit on an arbitrary day and lose their health insurance.

Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing

#25

Post by evantbyrne »

BizarreByte wrote: post #7
JohnFen wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could not agree more. We are all responsible for our actions and the results our actions cause. "I was just following orders" in no way absolves anyone of that responsibility. That you may pay a price for doing the right thing doesn't make avoiding doing it acceptable.

When that cost includes possibly losing everything your worked for and your kids suffering it ceases to be so clear cut. If the society you live in won't look out for you in these situations, why should you look out for it? Take care of you and yours first.

Gross negligence can have serious consequences. Software developers aren't immune to litigation.

Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing

#26

Post by isilofi »

mewpmewp2 wrote: post #12
xhkkffbf wrote: post #5

Just 75%? A friend was working for one of those AI startups. They wanted him to download and effectively steal documents for training their LLM. When he pointed out that the TOS explicitly forbade mass downloading, they fired him immediately. Sleezy times.

If it was a website, their ToS can say anything, it's still legal to download everything there.

Maybe, maybe not. But his main fault was pointing out the possible legal problem. As soon as he pointed to it, simple negligence and a possible Chewbacca defense became intent. Which is a huge difference in legal interpretation and penalties.

Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing

#27

Post by __MatrixMan__ »

BizarreByte wrote: post #7
JohnFen wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could not agree more. We are all responsible for our actions and the results our actions cause. "I was just following orders" in no way absolves anyone of that responsibility. That you may pay a price for doing the right thing doesn't make avoiding doing it acceptable.

When that cost includes possibly losing everything your worked for and your kids suffering it ceases to be so clear cut. If the society you live in won't look out for you in these situations, why should you look out for it? Take care of you and yours first.

It seems to me that killing off organizations that do harm in your community goes right along with taking care of you and yours first.

Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing

#28

Post by ethanwillis »

mewpmewp2 wrote: post #12
xhkkffbf wrote: post #5

Just 75%? A friend was working for one of those AI startups. They wanted him to download and effectively steal documents for training their LLM. When he pointed out that the TOS explicitly forbade mass downloading, they fired him immediately. Sleezy times.

If it was a website, their ToS can say anything, it's still legal to download everything there.

The parent comment never made the claim that it was illegal. Sleezy and legal are not mutually exclusive. The parent comment also didn't limit it to just downloading but to also "training an LLM"

Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing

#29

Post by generic92034 »

JohnFen wrote: post #20
BizarreByte wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When that cost includes possibly losing everything your worked for and your kids suffering it ceases to be so clear cut. If the society you live in won't look out for you in these situations, why should you look out for it? Take care of you and yours first.

> it ceases to be so clear cut. I think it's still clear cut. Losing everything is a lamentable disaster, to be sure, but that doesn't change the ethics of the situation. > If the society you live in won't look out for you in these situations It's not some faceless "society", it's actual people, including the specific people you know. If you're willing to do things that are harmful to others, you're actively working…

For me that is a bit too simple (no offense meant). If you are threatened you have to balance the harm you would be suffering by not complying with the harm you would be causing by complying.

Re: 75% of Software Engineers Faced Retaliation Last Time They Reported Wrongdoing

#30

Post by throw_m239339 »

parkerhiggins wrote: post #2

I've found that there isn't a lot of discussion or research around this subject. Shoutout to engprax, a compliance company, for clearly approaching the issue. Is it actually an issue though? Software engineers by design (?) are not capital "P" professionals. There's no certification or board underwriting our work. Software engineering/developers have had the latitude to "move fast" and represent the only "professiona…

> Is it actually an issue though? Software engineers by design (?) are not capital "P" professionals. There's no certification or board underwriting our work. Software engineering/developers have had the latitude to "move fast" and represent the only "professional" trade that has the ability to "try again" (with a deployment) versus a structural engineer for example.

You're turning the word professional into a euphemism, it isn't. It's a profession when you are paid to do the task. Industries have already plenty of regulation by sectors, there is no need for more regulation, it already exists. A "software engineer" wide certification will only create more gatekeepers in a domain that has too many of them already. There are already certifications within each industries that software developers serve. I'm absolutely opposed to any sort of certification process for software engineering itself. Within a certain sector? Banking? Avionics? Cars? Sure. And these already exist.

Every time something shady is talked about on HN you have a bunch of people coming in and talking about "Think of the children, there needs to be a certification for deploying a freaking blog on a server". Just No.

Post reply on HN