Stuxnet worm reportedly planted by Iranian double agent using memory stick • Hacker News Board

Re: Stuxnet worm reportedly planted by Iranian double agent using memory stick

#31

Post by jeremyis » Fri, Apr 13, 2012, 2:53 AM UTC

AngrySkillzz wrote: post #18

kai-zer wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Development of weapons-grade uranium for which the only purpose is for use in weapons of mass destruction... You make it sound like that is a bad thing.

A statement for which you have no evidence. And what threat does Iran pose to the United States? None at all.

I had a discussion with a friend of mine who is a postdoc in Nuclear Physics and he said that the type of reactor Iran chose to build only makes sense if you are trying to make a weapon... Something to the effect of better/more standard nuclear power is easier/cheaper/more efficient than what they were doing.

Sorry, don't remember the specifics!

Re: Stuxnet worm reportedly planted by Iranian double agent using memory stick

#32

Post by wolf550e » Fri, Apr 13, 2012, 3:11 AM UTC

nitrogen wrote: post #25

loverobots wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more than judging "behavior," Iran has specifically said that they want to wipe Israel off the map. More than once. So it is, or it may be a matter of life and death, not just tolerating someone's odd choice in clothes, or whatever. Is Iran bluffing, are Iran's leader rational or brainwashed religious fanatics? When all it takes is one nuke, why should Israel wait to find out?

Many in the US have said the same thing about Iran. When all it takes is one nuke, why should Iran wait to find out? See the hypocrisy? Existential threats work both ways. Are those US talking heads and politicians "brainwashed religious fanatics?" A more important question is why Iran('s government) wants (or claims to want) to eliminate Israel, and how to change their mind (or their government) peacefully.

Ostensibly, Iran's theocracy wants to eliminate the State of Israel (not the land itself, duh) because it's a non-Muslim occupier of Muslim land. That is what they say, and it is inline with their religious texts.

Israel has never threatened to nuke anyone. It has stated that it is preparing for a potential MAD situation, but that's not a threat - it's a defensive move. Israel does not state that Iran has no right to exist or that its regime must be changed or anything of the sort. I don't think Iran can legitimately claim they have an existential fear of Israel and any attack on Israel is in their own defense. They proclaim Israel as their enemy _in the name of other Muslims_, because they are a big defender of Islam from the Western invaders, not because they are directly threatened.

Re: Stuxnet worm reportedly planted by Iranian double agent using memory stick

#33

Post by kristopolous » Fri, Apr 13, 2012, 3:38 AM UTC

wolf550e wrote: post #28

justsee wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No they haven't. That convenient mistranslation is widely reported because it suits the narrative of the major political powers [1]. They've essentially said the current political regime in Israel must / will disappear. However that sentiment is less useful if your aim is to portray the Iranian state as an aggressive, modern-day Nazi regime though. Anyway that aim (essentially portraying Iran as a country dedicated t…

He said the State of Israel has no right to exist and that regime must vanish. [1] I think that is clear enough. The USA and the USSR exchanged similar messages, and also funded proxy wars against each other. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel#...

You either see Israel as an intentionally aggressive religiously driven racist (different license plates, voting laws, roads, id cards, laws) nuclear state with a colorful history of terrorism, espionage, invasions, spying, and assassination convictions in multiple countries, or you choose to ignore all of history and blindly support it. Either way, please stop acting surprised when people claim Israels' foreign policy is antagonistic, as if her detractors are mistaken and fabricating... as if Chomsky and Kofi Anaan are liars...

Re: Stuxnet worm reportedly planted by Iranian double agent using memory stick

#34

Post by wolf550e » Fri, Apr 13, 2012, 4:10 AM UTC

kristopolous wrote: post #33

wolf550e wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He said the State of Israel has no right to exist and that regime must vanish. [1] I think that is clear enough. The USA and the USSR exchanged similar messages, and also funded proxy wars against each other. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel#...

You either see Israel as an intentionally aggressive religiously driven racist (different license plates, voting laws, roads, id cards, laws) nuclear state with a colorful history of terrorism, espionage, invasions, spying, and assassination convictions in multiple countries, or you choose to ignore all of history and blindly support it. Either way, please stop acting surprised when people claim Israels' foreign poli…

You don't like Israel, fine. To what in my post do you object? How do I act surprised?

BTW, the _government_ of Israel has never been religiously driven, rather it has always been security conscious. The racism, nuclear deterrent, invasions, and assassinations are all a result of security policy (what do you call terrorism?). Condemning countries for espionage/spying (twice!) is kinda strange - all countries engage in espionage. The most egregious, in both this respect and invasions is the US. Do you perchance live on land stolen from Mexico or the American Natives? Enjoying a standard of living dependent on world wide projection of military power? Even if you don't, I think Israel receives a disproportionate amount of criticism for the amount of evil it does.

Re: Stuxnet worm reportedly planted by Iranian double agent using memory stick

#35

Post by loverobots » Fri, Apr 13, 2012, 4:23 AM UTC

nitrogen wrote: post #25

loverobots wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more than judging "behavior," Iran has specifically said that they want to wipe Israel off the map. More than once. So it is, or it may be a matter of life and death, not just tolerating someone's odd choice in clothes, or whatever. Is Iran bluffing, are Iran's leader rational or brainwashed religious fanatics? When all it takes is one nuke, why should Israel wait to find out?

Many in the US have said the same thing about Iran. When all it takes is one nuke, why should Iran wait to find out? See the hypocrisy? Existential threats work both ways. Are those US talking heads and politicians "brainwashed religious fanatics?" A more important question is why Iran('s government) wants (or claims to want) to eliminate Israel, and how to change their mind (or their government) peacefully.

if I was Iran's leader I'd want a nuke, as the ultimate weapon. If I was Israeli's leader, I'd everything to to stop them from getting it. Both sides understand this, it's business, so let the cat and mouse games continue. Who said what and when doesn't even matter

Re: Stuxnet worm reportedly planted by Iranian double agent using memory stick

#36

Post by rooshdi » Fri, Apr 13, 2012, 4:25 AM UTC

nitrogen wrote: post #25

loverobots wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more than judging "behavior," Iran has specifically said that they want to wipe Israel off the map. More than once. So it is, or it may be a matter of life and death, not just tolerating someone's odd choice in clothes, or whatever. Is Iran bluffing, are Iran's leader rational or brainwashed religious fanatics? When all it takes is one nuke, why should Israel wait to find out?

Many in the US have said the same thing about Iran. When all it takes is one nuke, why should Iran wait to find out? See the hypocrisy? Existential threats work both ways. Are those US talking heads and politicians "brainwashed religious fanatics?" A more important question is why Iran('s government) wants (or claims to want) to eliminate Israel, and how to change their mind (or their government) peacefully.

Yep, the whole situation is just sad. Until both sides lower their egos, empathize, and treat each other as they would want to be treated, it's just going to be an endless cycle of conflict. Humanity deserves better.

Re: Stuxnet worm reportedly planted by Iranian double agent using memory stick

#37

Post by Zhenya » Fri, Apr 13, 2012, 4:37 AM UTC

mahmud wrote: post #24

loverobots wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, Iran's leaders have stated that they wish to wipe Israel off the map. At least Israel has a legitimate reason to what they are doing and then some.

Israel did wipe another country off the map: Palestine. Yet we trust them with nukes, which they don't have at all .

There was a country called Palestine before Israel? Source please!

Re: Stuxnet worm reportedly planted by Iranian double agent using memory stick

#38

Post by The_Fox » Fri, Apr 13, 2012, 5:19 AM UTC

justsee wrote: post #26

loverobots wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, Iran's leaders have stated that they wish to wipe Israel off the map. At least Israel has a legitimate reason to what they are doing and then some.

No they haven't. That convenient mistranslation is widely reported because it suits the narrative of the major political powers [1]. They've essentially said the current political regime in Israel must / will disappear. However that sentiment is less useful if your aim is to portray the Iranian state as an aggressive, modern-day Nazi regime though. Anyway that aim (essentially portraying Iran as a country dedicated t…

Your CounterPunch source seems to have quite an agenda. It goes on to claim that Iran has no nuclear weapons program at all- a claim that is not well supported by all the things we see Iran doing.

Even if the article is correct, Ahmadinejad has said things like "this regime that is occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time" and "I have no doubt that the new movement taking place in our dear Palestine is a wave of morality which is spanning the entire Islamic world and which will soon remove this stain of disgrace from the Islamic world." The simplest interpretation of these statements is that Ahmadinejad strongly supports military action against Israel. (Unless you think Ahmadinejad is talking about a more peaceful way for Israel to "vanish from the page of time?")

Also: who cares if Iran has a Jewish population? That doesn't mean Ahmadinejad isn't a threat to Israel.

Re: Stuxnet worm reportedly planted by Iranian double agent using memory stick

#39

Post by kristopolous » Fri, Apr 13, 2012, 5:19 AM UTC

wolf550e wrote: post #34

kristopolous wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You either see Israel as an intentionally aggressive religiously driven racist (different license plates, voting laws, roads, id cards, laws) nuclear state with a colorful history of terrorism, espionage, invasions, spying, and assassination convictions in multiple countries, or you choose to ignore all of history and blindly support it. Either way, please stop acting surprised when people claim Israels' foreign poli…

You don't like Israel, fine. To what in my post do you object? How do I act surprised? BTW, the _government_ of Israel has never been religiously driven, rather it has always been security conscious. The racism, nuclear deterrent, invasions, and assassinations are all a result of security policy (what do you call terrorism?). Condemning countries for espionage/spying (twice!) is kinda strange - all countries engage i…

Israel was founded by Lehi, Irgun, and Haganah. The evacuation plan which led to the population growth of Israel was invented by Irgun commander Ze'ev Jabotinsky. The sixth prime minister of Israel, Menachem Begin, was also a commander in Irgun. Irgun and Lehi led to Herut, which is now the modern controlling Likud party in Israel. Lehi also had Yitzhak Shamir who became prime minister in the 1980s.

Lehi is famous for the Ankara document which proposed a pact with Nazi Germany to help start a totalitarian state (their words) in Palestine, to fulfill Zionism. They sponsored multiple sabotage and espionage operations against the British and in the Middle East. They were instrumental later in the invasion of Iran in 1942.

Lehi assassinated politicians in Britain and was described as a terrorist organization by the British authorities.

Irgun is an even easier case to make. Its motto: a hand holding a rifle with the words "only thus" underneath it. It was self-described as a terrorist organization by spokespeople from it at the time (1940s) and openly spoke of terrorism as the only effective way for a Zionist state.

So yes, Israel exists because of terrorism and is deeply rooted in it at a fundamental basis.

The whole point is that to point out that the current political manifestation known as Israel is a danger for the geopolitical stability of the region is actually a valid observation that historians will see as clear as day in 500 years. I know how politically unwise it is currently, but that doesn't make the reality false. There's lots of bitter pills out there.

Re: Stuxnet worm reportedly planted by Iranian double agent using memory stick

#40

Post by mc32 » Fri, Apr 13, 2012, 6:04 AM UTC

barrkel wrote: post #29

Retric wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a rather strong statement. Some people would argue that Iran with weapons grade uranium could reasonably increase the chances that 50,000 Americans will die in the next 10 years by more than 1 in 10,000. That suggests the US could reasonably kill 5 Iranians to deal with the threat. However, Iran would respond to such action which suggests a more limited response such such as planting a virus is reasonable as l…

I think a nuclear armed Iran would greatly decrease the probability of Americans being killed by Iranians. The logic is simple: nukes bring a country into MAD (mutually assured destruction) mechanics. Most likely Iran would use Israel as a hostage since it would not have the ICBMs necessary to attack the US directly. It would be like North Korea and Japan, only "Japan" would be nuclear armed. I consider invasion of I…

>MAD should prevent this, like it does in North Korea

I thought MAD only worked with rational players. Do we know the people who would hold the levers would be rational? We (the west) don't seem to have the same feedback network (i.e. spies) we could depend on as we did with the USSR. That and we had the "red phone" thing. Dunno if that was more gimmick than actual tool.

>I don't buy neo-conservative...

We don't know what the control structure behind such threat there would be. Can one person cause a launch, conversely, can one person override a launch order?