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Krita AI Diffusion

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Re: Krita AI Diffusion

#201

Post by pxoe »

thot_experiment wrote: post #13
hafriedlander wrote: post #8

Somewhat tangential, but the Krita community and core team have been pretty explicitly anti-AI. https://krita-artists.org/t/change-in-policy-for-topics-rela... (I am part of a group that builds UI on top of open models, but we stopped working on our Krita version for that reason.)

The AI hate is suuuch a meme in the art community, it's very frustrating/alienating. (Though understandably, neoliberal capitalism is also extremely frustrating, so I see why artists mad, I just wish they'd be mad at the root cause.) ((the root cause is that an economic system fundamentally based on scarcity == value doesn't make sense when applied to things that are essentially infinite, and kludgeing in artificial…

you're a meme. do you "see" why artists are mad?

it's quite simple. artists offer to make their art for a price, as a 'service'. then, something comes in, that pirated their previous works, and offers to make imagery in that art style for free (or at a low low price), undercutting and displacing that artist.

really it's a 'yet another spin on piracy'. cause that's just the 'services' part, besides the 'selling works/artwork' which has long been rife with piracy, but the 'pirating what's been offered as a service' thing is new. piracy expanding into 'services' field as well. services (particularly those that rely on someone specifically taking their time to do something, and not just 'press button, service gets performed unattended') are scarce. there's only so many hours and so much time in one's life.

Re: Krita AI Diffusion

#203

Post by pxoe »

thot_experiment wrote: post #155
lancesells wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an artist and look at generative AI as a tool that's almost always going to produce content but not art. I refuse to use it from a moral standpoint but I also don't use any digital tools at all in the creation of my work. Even if I worked digitally I don't create art to produce pretty pictures as fast as possible. Typing in a prompt and fiddling with some things back and forth is just that.

This comment hurts me to my very core, I actually screamed when I read it. I'm in one of the most artistically productive periods of my life right now. I've been doing multiple notebook pages of gouache and india ink a day. I also have a homebuilt plotter that I've written an entire suite of software for. I've been doing 3D graphics and photomanipulation, I've been dabbling in video editing. AND I've been pushing wha…

typing some text and pressing 'generate', iterating, or doing layering and photobashing, just isn't gonna be 'painting', or 'drawing', like, ever. on a fundamental level. you'll need to get over yourself asap if you're "screaming" over this

Re: Krita AI Diffusion

#204

Post by sndwnm »

throwaway30230 wrote: post #176

At this point it seems pointless to even bother to try given that AI will generate all possible artwork within a couple years. I mean. Say you get "good" at using this. What's the life expectancy at any kind of creative outlet you could have that would support you? I mean if we're talking this is fun as a toy, yeah ok. I could see that. But as a job? When everyone can paint no one is paid for it. I suppose that we co…

Seems pointless to learn to make singular highly detailed visual art pieces? Maybe. Maybe it always was pointless.

But most visual art is not just single pictures in a vacuum. Say you want to make a game with 2d still-art, or say a comic. You will need dozens or hundreds of images and they will have to be tied together by a common design — characters and style that look similar in the different images, and most of all you have to have a story to back it up. This is not something AIs can do well, not for a long while, but a human artist now may do significantly better than before with help of "dumb AI", such as the featured Krita plugin.

Finally, most artists don't think like you. It's not "pointless" to do something that can be technically repeated by other humans or AI. You do art because you want to express yourself.

Re: Krita AI Diffusion

#205

Post by RunSet »

Gormo wrote: post #198
RunSet wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a certain light smartphones resemble the moral equivalent of violating the Prime Directive. "Here, rural areas and undeveloped nations. Take this crippled, distorted window into the greater internet. It happens to be much better at viewing content than creating it and will surveil you more closely than ever you watch it. The preinstalled software is forbidden to remove. Don't view it more than ten minutes a day or…

I think you'd be better served making moral arguments rooted in ethical principles that people adhere to in real life, not science fiction. This is especially important when you consider how unethical the Prime Directive itself is as a principle, and how often Star Trek portrays violating it as the morally superior choice. The position you're advancing here seems to infantilize people in rural areas and undeveloped n…

> The position you're advancing here seems to infantilize people in rural areas and undeveloped nations

I believe it seems that way to you.

Many people (in particular unemancipated minors) might likewise consider it infantilizing to place a minimum age requirement on drivers' licenses, firearms, alcohol, etc. yet the consensus is that doing so is for the greater good.

Re: Krita AI Diffusion

#206

Post by awfulneutral »

sndwnm wrote: post #204
throwaway30230 wrote: post #176

At this point it seems pointless to even bother to try given that AI will generate all possible artwork within a couple years. I mean. Say you get "good" at using this. What's the life expectancy at any kind of creative outlet you could have that would support you? I mean if we're talking this is fun as a toy, yeah ok. I could see that. But as a job? When everyone can paint no one is paid for it. I suppose that we co…

Seems pointless to learn to make singular highly detailed visual art pieces? Maybe. Maybe it always was pointless. But most visual art is not just single pictures in a vacuum. Say you want to make a game with 2d still-art, or say a comic. You will need dozens or hundreds of images and they will have to be tied together by a common design — characters and style that look similar in the different images, and most of al…

> Finally, most artists don't think like you. It's not "pointless" to do something that can be technically repeated by other humans or AI. You do art because you want to express yourself.

I've seen this sentiment a bunch of times, but I don't agree. Most people practice skills and make art in order to demonstrate their value to society. Art (and media) doesn't exist in a vacuum, it surely exists for societal reasons.

A person may want to make a game or a comic, but the reason they want to make those things, instead of just consuming existing media, is also to demonstrate their value to society. But they won't have any value either when everyone else can easily make games and comics.

Re: Krita AI Diffusion

#207

Post by OCASMv2 »

ben_w wrote: post #64
thot_experiment wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The AI hate is suuuch a meme in the art community, it's very frustrating/alienating. (Though understandably, neoliberal capitalism is also extremely frustrating, so I see why artists mad, I just wish they'd be mad at the root cause.) ((the root cause is that an economic system fundamentally based on scarcity == value doesn't make sense when applied to things that are essentially infinite, and kludgeing in artificial…

Mm. Possibly, but not necessarily. I have a suspicion that art is to humans as fancy tails are to peacocks: the difficulty is the point. I believe this is why we have art galleries proudly displaying oil paintings of fruit bowls, but don't do this for random food snapshots. It's also why photographs as a category were initially dismissed (in an era that had come to praise extreme realism in paintings), but when photo…

That view of art ended over a century ago with the modernist (mediocrist) movements.

Nowadays art is whatever one wants it to be (or not to be). It's just a word people use to enhance the social perception of whatever manmade creation they like.

Re: Krita AI Diffusion

#208

Post by raincole »

makeitdouble wrote: post #91
raincole wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think at one point Krita will fork to two apps because of this exact reason. AI-based tools are clearly the next step of painting apps (to me at least, but I can't be the only one who believes in this). I think in 3~5 years an painting app without AI generation feature is just like a painting app without pen pressure today. It's still usable, you can make great art with it if you have the skill, but it will be so o…

Is it that different from how we view Github copilot ? As far as I know there's a sizeable number of devs who don't intend to ever rely on copilot, and I would expect the a similar trend in the drawing community with amateurs and pros not specially anti-AI, but not wanting to have a random generator meddle with their art.

There are a lot of people who draw and paint. Of course there will be people who reject AI. There are people who restrictly only use traditional media too. That's why I said Krita will (and should?) fork into 2 apps, one for people who reject AI.

But the line between "random generator" and "artistic finer control" isn't that sharp and clear. How do digital artists draw leaves and bushes in background? If not photobashing, most experienced people will use some kind of brushes[0] with some radnomness built into them, like random rotation or spray.

Randomness is even more prevelant in traditional media.

And I'm 100% sure AI will evolve to cover as much as both ends.

[0]: Not necessarily a leaf brush. A common misconception held by digital painting newbies are you need X brush to paint X efficiently. Experienced aritsts don't want X -- they want some controllable randomness.

Re: Krita AI Diffusion

#209

Post by opyate »

thot_experiment wrote: post #13
hafriedlander wrote: post #8

Somewhat tangential, but the Krita community and core team have been pretty explicitly anti-AI. https://krita-artists.org/t/change-in-policy-for-topics-rela... (I am part of a group that builds UI on top of open models, but we stopped working on our Krita version for that reason.)

The AI hate is suuuch a meme in the art community, it's very frustrating/alienating. (Though understandably, neoliberal capitalism is also extremely frustrating, so I see why artists mad, I just wish they'd be mad at the root cause.) ((the root cause is that an economic system fundamentally based on scarcity == value doesn't make sense when applied to things that are essentially infinite, and kludgeing in artificial…

I don't get AI hate. It's nothing other than "technology hate".

As a web developer who started out in 2001/2002, I watched as custom web design jobs dried up, and more and more people (and ahem artists) started using online tools to create a templatised website on the cheap.

Did I throw a tantrum? Nope! I learned to do backend dev so I could make my own automation tools.

Seriously, just embrace these new superpowers already.

Re: Krita AI Diffusion

#210

Post by dotnet00 »

wokwokwok wrote: post #17
thot_experiment wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The AI hate is suuuch a meme in the art community, it's very frustrating/alienating. (Though understandably, neoliberal capitalism is also extremely frustrating, so I see why artists mad, I just wish they'd be mad at the root cause.) ((the root cause is that an economic system fundamentally based on scarcity == value doesn't make sense when applied to things that are essentially infinite, and kludgeing in artificial…

> it's very frustrating/alienating Mm. I’ve spoken to a number of artists who have expressed similar feelings of despair, frustration and anger. There are many upset people over this technology, and calling it a meme diminishes them to meaningless copycat haters. I don’t think that’s true; and doing it, really reallllly makes them angry. Consider: this attitude it part of the reason why that attitude exists. :| If th…

It really just highlights the massive gap between artist's impressions and the 'techbros' talking about how it's just another tool. It's clear that many techbros really just don't understand art. A few weeks ago there was a post here about how the majority of art involved in a game is never seen by the public, where someone had asked what could be done to make this process more efficient so less 'waste' art needed to be produced. I think this thinking that this approach to AI generated 'art' has a similar disconnect between artist and techie.

Techbros see the tool and talk on and on about how it'll optimize workflows and how it's just another tool, cloning artstyles and patting each other on the back for automating another task, while completely ignoring the concern from artists about having basic ethical concerns trampled over in the name of disruption and progress.

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