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What if money expired?

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Re: What if money expired?

#181

Post by alsogutalsogut »

genman wrote: post #22
rlnorthcutt wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a difference between inflation, which affects the entire monetary system, and money expiration which affects individual units of currency. In the first case, there is no incentive to use the money any faster, and as long as inflation isn't too high, there could be incentives to hoard/save it. In the second case, each unit has an expiration, and like the game of hot potato, you want it out of your hands quick…

The question then becomes - when is the money created? Is it created when it is issued by a (central) bank or is created when an exchange (for value) takes place? (the later has an interesting side effect as it would incentive to make transactions legal)

Sorry, non native english speaker so (in german)

"Ich möchte das nochmal klarstellen, ich redete (schon was her) nicht von 'Zinsfrei' in Umlauf gebrachten Geld, aber sehrwohl und im Interesse aller Beteiligten, von Schuldfrei (i think 'debt-free money' would be the word in english, and against debt driven creation of money) in Umlauf gebrachtem Geld."

And explicit nothing from the Muzzies "economical"-stuff!

Re: What if money expired?

#182

Post by alsogutalsogut »

garrickvanburen wrote: post #12
rlnorthcutt wrote: post #2

An interesting look at theories around "perishable" money. A very interesting concept. Most resources in the world have a lifespan - even an iron bar will eventually rust. However, a dollar is as perpetual as the system itself. On top of that, the entire economic system is designed to reward those who take more and give less - that is how you become rich, and being rich is the highest ideal. However, if money had a l…

Grain is quite stable under the right conditions (dry, cool), which is one of the reasons there can be a futures market for it and sales can happen over the winter and even the spring following a harvest. It wouldn’t surprise me if the origin of currency began with grain.

[flagged]

Re: What if money expired?

#183

Post by ricardobeat »

whartung wrote: post #117
mikewarot wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I carry around a piece of hard currency (1901 Silver Dollar) to remind me of what real money is like... it's always been worth about 4 retail gallons of gasoline. I expect that trend to continue for at least another decade. Soft money, tends towards zero, as you said.

I’ve actually been casually looking for a Carson City dollar to carry around, just as a keepsake. Trick is finding one in bad enough shape to lose much of its numismatic value (since my intent is to carry it in a pocket with keys and other horrors) but retain the fact that it is, indeed, a CC dollar.

If you’re only interested in the intrinsic value of the metal, why not melt some silver and make your own coin?

Re: What if money expired?

#184

Post by PopAlongKid »

KomoD wrote: post #151
PopAlongKid wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not that different in U.S. The older bills without modern anti-counterfeiting (colored threads, holograms, etc) already attract increased scrutiny (not exactly worthless, but heading in the same direction). I recently went to an In-N-Out with a $50 bill from around the turn of the century, and a manager had to be called over to inspect it.

That's very different, it was inspected but you could still use it...? It was not invalid.

That's why I wrote "not exactly worthless, but heading in the same direction".

Re: What if money expired?

#185

Post by ToucanLoucan »

hellojesus wrote: post #174
ToucanLoucan wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Call me cynical but I have a strong feeling that the wealthy elite who are already paying an entire cottage industry's worth of six-figure or more finance professionals and lawyers to dodge taxes will find a way to make this work for them too, while it creates an even stronger barrier to entering the truly monied classes from whatever remains of the middle class. If you want to get money moving in the economy again,…

> If you want to get money moving in the economy again, we already know how to do that. Tax the shit out of the wealthy in such a way that they can't weasel out of it, and turn that money over to the people, be it through hiring them for public works projects, more and wider spread research grants, Universal Basic Income, or economic stimulus. Yes, you will indeed increase the velocity of money if you steal it from p…

I cannot comprehend that there are people who still think trickle-down economics can work.

The vast majority of the history of the United States is a story of the rich being taxed extremely highly once they crossed a certain threshold of wealth, usually around 70%. Corporations too. We still had massive corporations, and we still had insanely rich people, so much so that the most famous anti-trust cases occurred during that time. And we also, in addition to that, built the highway system, built the Hoover dam, built three electrical grids, went to the moon, waged two police actions in southeast Asia (I didn't say it was all good) and created the fundamental technologies that gave us the Internet.

Conversely there is no evidence that the super-rich do anything with their money consistently besides hoard it.

Re: What if money expired?

#186

Post by hellojesus »

ToucanLoucan wrote: post #185
hellojesus wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you want to get money moving in the economy again, we already know how to do that. Tax the shit out of the wealthy in such a way that they can't weasel out of it, and turn that money over to the people, be it through hiring them for public works projects, more and wider spread research grants, Universal Basic Income, or economic stimulus. Yes, you will indeed increase the velocity of money if you steal it from p…

I cannot comprehend that there are people who still think trickle-down economics can work. The vast majority of the history of the United States is a story of the rich being taxed extremely highly once they crossed a certain threshold of wealth, usually around 70%. Corporations too. We still had massive corporations, and we still had insanely rich people, so much so that the most famous anti-trust cases occurred duri…

> Conversely there is no evidence that the super-rich do anything with their money consistently besides hoard it.

Didn't Elon just use a bunch of money to buy Twitter? Didn't he also aink a bunch of personal money wagering on SpaceX?

I'd hardly say the wealthy don't use their money. Typically they invest it in new companies and businesses. They don't just let it sit there. And those investments create jobs and new services.

Conversely, despite all the cool things yhe federal government has done in the past, we see massivr amounts of bloat and inefficient resource allocations. I don't keep to keep any of my yearly salary until approximately Easter each year. And what am I getting for that? Maybe the FAA is about the best outcome.

Re: What if money expired?

#187

Post by ToucanLoucan »

hellojesus wrote: post #186
ToucanLoucan wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cannot comprehend that there are people who still think trickle-down economics can work. The vast majority of the history of the United States is a story of the rich being taxed extremely highly once they crossed a certain threshold of wealth, usually around 70%. Corporations too. We still had massive corporations, and we still had insanely rich people, so much so that the most famous anti-trust cases occurred duri…

> Conversely there is no evidence that the super-rich do anything with their money consistently besides hoard it. Didn't Elon just use a bunch of money to buy Twitter? Didn't he also aink a bunch of personal money wagering on SpaceX? I'd hardly say the wealthy don't use their money. Typically they invest it in new companies and businesses. They don't just let it sit there. And those investments create jobs and new se…

Elon is known for this precisely because it's such an anomaly. And also, buying twitter doesn't stimulate the economy in the way economists will tell you is important because the vast, vast majority of that Twitter purchase was a) financed debt, not cash and b) will simply go to other capital holders, not the working class.

SpaceX is at least better for an example but it still isn't great as SpaceX itself is funded largely by the Government anyway, which Tesla is also a large beneficiary over. I'm not opposed to spending money on important new technology, unless there's an Elon Musk at the top getting rich off it. If we're already paying for Tesla and SpaceX to exist, who the fuck needs the Aparthied profiteer? He's shown himself so many times to be wildly incompetent and out of touch with all of the large businesses he's an investor in, not the least of which is the absolute clown show that Twitter's become, while he's set fire to 40 billion of it's 44 billion purchase price. And according to insiders, that seems to be because Twitter didn't have the chance to build the "Elon management team" that exists at all his other companies to prevent his boondoggling from causing more havoc than it has to.

I'm not even saying he's a bad guy (though he is) I'm saying we don't fucking need him, we need his money, which he only has because we've said he's allowed to keep it. So tax his ass and then he can go have a normal mid-life post-divorce crisis and like, buy a Ferrari and crash it into a tree or something instead of buying and sinking a social media site.

> Conversely, despite all the cool things yhe federal government has done in the past, we see massivr amounts of bloat and inefficient resource allocations.

You see the exact same thing in the private sector. This isn't a bug in Government, it's a bug in human organizations.

Re: What if money expired?

#188

Post by bogoris »

zmgsabst wrote: post #41
znpy wrote: post #35

Who would this hurt, anyway? Rich people keep their “money” in the form of socks, bonds and properties anyway.

I always think things like this are amusing: Poor people “failing” the Marshmallow Test is taken as not having impulse control — but I’d argue studies fail to account for different life experience in people taking your “marshmallow” away, no matter what they promise. This is stealing marshmallows on an industrial scale.

[dead]

Re: What if money expired?

#189

Post by gspencley »

Geee wrote: post #46

Insanely bad idea. People will always try to store their wealth in inperishable goods. People will get rid of their perishable money and buy property. Which is what happens now already, because of inflation. When property becomes a "money" in a store of value sense, it will become overvalued, and people can't afford houses for living anymore.

> People will always try to store their wealth in inperishable goods.

Exactly this. This is how money came to be, "organically", in the first place. Because of modern fiat currency people tend to think that money is some sort of invention, but it doesn't take much to realize that if you're a dairy farmer then barter is completely untenable. How do you save and store enough milk to buy a car, and who has a car for sale and wants to trade it for a ton of milk anyway?

Throughout history everything from salt to spices to metals has been used as currency. There are 5 properties that make for a good currency:

- Easily divisible

- Relatively light weight / easy to store

- Difficult to counterfeit / fake

- Other people are highly willing to trade for it (high market value)

- Durable / non-perishable

You need all of the above, which is why precious metals became so common.

If fiat currency "expired" then people would just replace it with something that satisfies durable / non-perishable.

Re: What if money expired?

#190

Post by hellojesus »

ToucanLoucan wrote: post #187
hellojesus wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Conversely there is no evidence that the super-rich do anything with their money consistently besides hoard it. Didn't Elon just use a bunch of money to buy Twitter? Didn't he also aink a bunch of personal money wagering on SpaceX? I'd hardly say the wealthy don't use their money. Typically they invest it in new companies and businesses. They don't just let it sit there. And those investments create jobs and new se…

Elon is known for this precisely because it's such an anomaly. And also, buying twitter doesn't stimulate the economy in the way economists will tell you is important because the vast, vast majority of that Twitter purchase was a) financed debt, not cash and b) will simply go to other capital holders, not the working class. SpaceX is at least better for an example but it still isn't great as SpaceX itself is funded l…

> You see the exact same thing in the private sector. This isn't a bug in Government, it's a bug in human organizations.

Sure, but when the private sector wastes it only does so at the expense of its customers, as the waste leads to higher prices. It opens the door for that company to be out-competed.

There is no such mechanism for the waste in gov. It has no competition, and therefore the bloat keeps growing. Voters are the only recourse. There is no natural dynamic to keep operations efficient.

> I'm not even saying he's a bad guy (though he is) I'm saying we don't fucking need him, we need his money, which he only has because we've said he's allowed to keep it. So tax his ass...

This is called theft. We have plenty of money for public goods, such as national defense. You want to steal this man's money; plain and simple.

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