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Persuasion through status rather than argument

robkhenderson.com

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Re: Persuasion through status rather than argument

#201

Post by rayiner »

pavel_lishin wrote: post #150
Animats wrote: post #149

> In the 1950s, at the height of McCarthyism, 13.4 percent of Americans reported that “felt less free to speak their mind than they used to.” In 1987, the figure had reached 20 percent. By 2019, 40 percent of Americans reported that they did not feel free to speak their minds. This isn’t a partisan issue, either. Gibson and Sutherland report that, “The percentage of Democrats who are worried about speaking their mind…

I certainly keep my mouth shut about certain things, lest the people whose beliefs I find vile and unconscionable (and who view mine the same way) ostracize me, or worse, my child in the community. Far better to gently feel people out before revealing my beliefs entirely.

And you gotta socialize your kids to keep their mouths shut too. My daughter attends a progressive school, and she’s intuited that there’s a de-facto racial hierarchy that she’s none too happy about. (She was recently invited to attend a school-sponsored weekly lunch for black girls, but once a month because she’s half white and half south Asian and I guess that’s how the math works out.) I pointed out that she needs to keep her mouth shut about it if she doesn’t want to get cancelled.

Funny thing is, she already kinda knew that. Even at 11 she had an inkling about the possible social consequences of complaining about that.

Re: Persuasion through status rather than argument

#202

Post by sgu999 »

rayiner wrote: post #201
pavel_lishin wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I certainly keep my mouth shut about certain things, lest the people whose beliefs I find vile and unconscionable (and who view mine the same way) ostracize me, or worse, my child in the community. Far better to gently feel people out before revealing my beliefs entirely.

And you gotta socialize your kids to keep their mouths shut too. My daughter attends a progressive school, and she’s intuited that there’s a de-facto racial hierarchy that she’s none too happy about. (She was recently invited to attend a school-sponsored weekly lunch for black girls, but once a month because she’s half white and half south Asian and I guess that’s how the math works out.) I pointed out that she needs…

What a strange society you live in... I don't see how any kind of racial segregation can help the next generation do better than the previous one.

Having to explain to your kid that they can't do X because of their phenotype feels simply wrong.

Re: Persuasion through status rather than argument

#204

Post by handoflixue »

calderknight wrote: post #181
fourthark wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Merriam-Webster: "Ideology: a manner or the content of thinking characteristic of an individual, group, or culture" No ideology = no characteristic thinking. If you think you don't have ideology, you probably have the dominant one. Or don't think.

Epic logic fail. You're affirming the consequent. Just because A -> B, and we have B, doesn't mean we can conclude A. Sure, Idealogy -> a manner of thinking characteristic of an individual, group, or culture But A manner of thinking characteristic of an individual -> idealogy Doesn't follow from that!

Ideology is often used both in the sense of "A well organized philosophy shared by numerous people" and "one's own personal philosophy".

For instance, from https://www.dictionary.com/browse/ideology, "the body of doctrine, myth, belief, etc., that guides an individual (...)"

Re: Persuasion through status rather than argument

#205

Post by handoflixue »

shannifin wrote: post #105

Is there a way to self-evaluate whether or not your belief is the product of social status preservation? If not, what good is it to recognize the possibility, save for accusing others of it?

I've found it very useful to ask "what would it take for me to change this belief?" If you can't think of anything, you're almost definitely in social status territory.

The follow-up is how comfortable you'd feel sharing this with your friends - do you think they'd also change their minds, or do you think they'd ostracize you? Would you feel comfortable sharing the hypothetical, or only if those events really came to pass?

(For example, if every major university did a press release saying the moon landing was a hoax, I'd have to seriously entertain the idea that they're right. I don't think any of my friends would be upset if I shared this hypothetical with them, and I think most of them would join me if it really did happen. So my belief that the moon landing is real is probably a "real" belief and not just a social product.)

Re: Persuasion through status rather than argument

#206

Post by patrick451 »

melagonster wrote: post #195
intalentive wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure how you define sexism, but more traditional patriarchal groups have higher birth rates and more social cohesion. In the long run those traits propagate themselves. The stereotypical cat lady, not so much. As far as racism, it may not propagate the species but surely it helps propagate those genetically closer to oneself. Isn’t in-group preference pretty common? Don’t need to be EO Wilson or Richard Dawkins t…

Richard Dawkins said biologists don't offer any indication of ethics. we made by evolution and nature doesn't mean we should live as beast.

With no god, why not? It doesn't matter one way or the other.

Re: Persuasion through status rather than argument

#207

Post by pen2l »

rayiner wrote: post #201
pavel_lishin wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I certainly keep my mouth shut about certain things, lest the people whose beliefs I find vile and unconscionable (and who view mine the same way) ostracize me, or worse, my child in the community. Far better to gently feel people out before revealing my beliefs entirely.

And you gotta socialize your kids to keep their mouths shut too. My daughter attends a progressive school, and she’s intuited that there’s a de-facto racial hierarchy that she’s none too happy about. (She was recently invited to attend a school-sponsored weekly lunch for black girls, but once a month because she’s half white and half south Asian and I guess that’s how the math works out.) I pointed out that she needs…

[flagged]

Re: Persuasion through status rather than argument

#208

Post by calderknight »

handoflixue wrote: post #204
calderknight wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Epic logic fail. You're affirming the consequent. Just because A -> B, and we have B, doesn't mean we can conclude A. Sure, Idealogy -> a manner of thinking characteristic of an individual, group, or culture But A manner of thinking characteristic of an individual -> idealogy Doesn't follow from that!

Ideology is often used both in the sense of "A well organized philosophy shared by numerous people" and "one's own personal philosophy". For instance, from https://www.dictionary.com/browse/ideology , "the body of doctrine, myth, belief, etc., that guides an individual (...)"

Not everybody has a body of beliefs that guides him.

Re: Persuasion through status rather than argument

#209

Post by Tainnor »

fallingknife wrote: post #122
Tainnor wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you only looking at income inequality, only in the United States and only in the last 20 years? Look at where that graph was in 1980, for example.

Because you said "over the last couple decades"

But I didn't intend 2000 to be an arbitrary cutoff. 1980 is important because it's right before Reagan- and Thatcher-style economics. And if you look at measures of wealth inequality (e.g. the share of wealth owned by billionaires), that's actually become worse especially during the pandemic.

Re: Persuasion through status rather than argument

#210

Post by Tainnor »

gms wrote: post #128
Tainnor wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you're seeing the whole picture if you think only about physical force. People who are well off have more opportunities to start other ventures that make them even more well-off, and if they're especially powerful, they can use that influence to further their benefit. I don't think that's particularly controversial.

It’s not easy to start successful ventures. Most new ventures fail. Even the best VCs only have a 30% success rate.

That doesn't contradict anything. Most people can't afford to start a new venture, so they have a 0% success rate.
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