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Persuasion through status rather than argument

robkhenderson.com

191–200 of 251 posts

Re: Persuasion through status rather than argument

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a definition, not a consequent. Definition is equality not if-then.

You'd be right if it was actually a definition. But it's not. It deals with the attributes of the thing rather than the thing's essence. Like, the "definition" of car is 'a vehicle moving on wheels', but we can't from that conclude that all vehicles moving on wheels are cars.

I guess you have a more narrow definition of ideology!

Re: Persuasion through status rather than argument

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I missed the memo that I am not allowed to agree with that quote. When did this happen?

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/11/colorblind... https://academic.oup.com/socpro/article-abstract/66/4/503/52... I quoted MLK (as above) at someone in 2020 and was quite surprised when it uncorked a rant about how that must mean i was a racist and didn't care for the struggles of the oppressed and so on.

Crucially, MLK said "I have a dream" about "one day" in the future. But MLK wasn't dumb enough to think that people could just magically declare racism to be over now without doing anything to address the social inequities and inequalities caused by centuries of historical racism.

Re: Persuasion through status rather than argument

#193

> In the 1950s, at the height of McCarthyism, 13.4 percent of Americans reported that “felt less free to speak their mind than they used to.” In 1987, the figure had reached 20 percent. By 2019, 40 percent of Americans reported that they did not feel free to speak their minds. This isn’t a partisan issue, either. Gibson and Sutherland report that, “The percentage of Democrats who are worried about speaking their mind…

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Re: Persuasion through status rather than argument

#194
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure that it's scary. After all, casual racism and sexism used to be a lot more common in the past. Now people are called out and criticized on those. Is that bad? The other factor is the rise of internet social media, which didn't exist back then. When people spoke their mind, it wasn't broadcast publicly to the whole world, so there was less fear of backlash.

> I'm not sure that it's scary. After all, casual racism and sexism used to be a lot more common in the past. Now people are called out and criticized on those. Is that bad? Even if we grant that the rise in self-censorship is entirely due to "casual racism and sexism" (and I don't grant it), wouldn't that meant that 40% of people are secret bigots? That sounds bad, you would rather they be open about their beliefs s…

> I don't grant it

Neither do I.

> people are secret bigots? That sounds bad, you would rather they be open about their beliefs so you can identify them, no?

I don't know how much of a secret it is. This tends to be fairly obvious regardless of whether people say it openly, and depending on which circles you spend time in, you tend to hear it already in private anyway. Perhaps there are many people who were naive, ignorant, sheltered, and are shocked to learn about bigotry, but speaking only for myself, I'm not at all surprised by the continuing level of bigotry in society, and I knew it before the rise of social media.

Re: Persuasion through status rather than argument

#195
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Moderation in all things, but nothing wrong with a little here and there. Would you say the same about rape, violence, and murder? Those seem like "natural instincts". Nothing wrong with a little here and there? I would dispute that racism and sexism are "just like" sexuality, and I would also dispute that all "natural instincts", you might call them animal instincts, ought to be accepted and encouraged. One of the…

Not sure how you define sexism, but more traditional patriarchal groups have higher birth rates and more social cohesion. In the long run those traits propagate themselves. The stereotypical cat lady, not so much. As far as racism, it may not propagate the species but surely it helps propagate those genetically closer to oneself. Isn’t in-group preference pretty common? Don’t need to be EO Wilson or Richard Dawkins t…

Richard Dawkins said biologists don't offer any indication of ethics. we made by evolution and nature doesn't mean we should live as beast.

Re: Persuasion through status rather than argument

#196

> In the 1950s, at the height of McCarthyism, 13.4 percent of Americans reported that “felt less free to speak their mind than they used to.” In 1987, the figure had reached 20 percent. By 2019, 40 percent of Americans reported that they did not feel free to speak their minds. This isn’t a partisan issue, either. Gibson and Sutherland report that, “The percentage of Democrats who are worried about speaking their mind…

I don't find that number scary or surprising... I'm less likely to overhear racial slurs being thrown around in casual conversation now compared to the past, some selfcensorship is good

Not everyone thinks political correctness is bad

Re: Persuasion through status rather than argument

#197
post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/11/colorblind... https://academic.oup.com/socpro/article-abstract/66/4/503/52... I quoted MLK (as above) at someone in 2020 and was quite surprised when it uncorked a rant about how that must mean i was a racist and didn't care for the struggles of the oppressed and so on.

Crucially, MLK said "I have a dream" about "one day" in the future. But MLK wasn't dumb enough to think that people could just magically declare racism to be over now without doing anything to address the social inequities and inequalities caused by centuries of historical racism.

Moving the "colored" seats from the back of the bus to the front, is not doing anything to address the inequities, either.

Re: Persuasion through status rather than argument

#198

> In the 1950s, at the height of McCarthyism, 13.4 percent of Americans reported that “felt less free to speak their mind than they used to.” In 1987, the figure had reached 20 percent. By 2019, 40 percent of Americans reported that they did not feel free to speak their minds. This isn’t a partisan issue, either. Gibson and Sutherland report that, “The percentage of Democrats who are worried about speaking their mind…

I don't find that number scary or surprising... I'm less likely to overhear racial slurs being thrown around in casual conversation now compared to the past, some selfcensorship is good Not everyone thinks political correctness is bad

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Re: Persuasion through status rather than argument

#199

> In the 1950s, at the height of McCarthyism, 13.4 percent of Americans reported that “felt less free to speak their mind than they used to.” In 1987, the figure had reached 20 percent. By 2019, 40 percent of Americans reported that they did not feel free to speak their minds. This isn’t a partisan issue, either. Gibson and Sutherland report that, “The percentage of Democrats who are worried about speaking their mind…

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I wouldn't even consider these 'extreme left' or 'far left' people to really be on the left, they're like a whole other ideology separate from that.

For instance, someone whose advocacy is fixated mostly around demolishing women's spaces for the pleasure of men, or is obsessed with manifesting racial divides everywhere they look, has really missed the point. They're not even attempting to achieve a society based on egalitarian ideals, all they want to do is set up and maintain new identarian hierarchies.

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