Earlier quoted context omitted.
Many here would have said it's a complicated both sides issue (such as framing it as terrorists vs colonizers) and that neither side can be supported, given their current stances evident in this thread. Do you condemn the Viet Cong? Did their choice to use violence justify America's violence against them?
America’s entry into Vietnam was based on manufactured consent and lies like the Gulf of Tonkin incident. Heck, Laos wasn’t ever involved as a “bad actor” yet ended up the most bombed country in the history of the world. You can thank Kissinger for that. In short: America was the bad guy.
TikTok says it's not the algorithm, teens are just pro-Palestine
161–170 of 171 posts
Re: TikTok says it's not the algorithm, teens are just pro-Palestine
#162“Maybe I’ll start here. I think something we’re seeing in the politics in America around Israel right now, I think it reflects three generations with very different lived experiences of what Israel is. You have older Americans, say, Joe Biden, who saw Israel as the haven for the Jews and who also saw Israel when it was weak and small, when it really could have been wiped off the map by its neighbors.”
“We also knew an Israel that was an occupying force, a country that could and did impose its will on Palestinians, and I don’t want to be euphemistic about this, an Israel in which Palestinians were an oppressed class, where their lives and their security and their freedom were worth less. But we also knew an Israel that had a strong peace movement, where the moral horror of that occupation was widely recognized. We knew an Israel where the leaders were trying imperfectly, but seriously and continuously, to become something better, to become something different, to become in the eyes of the world what Israel was in its own eyes, a Jewish state, but a humane and moral one.”
“And so now you have this generation, the one coming of age now, the one that has only known this Israel, Netanyahu’s Israel, Ben-Gvir’s Israel.”
“There is this Pew survey in 2022 that I find really telling. It found that 69 percent of Americans over age 65 had a favorable view of Israel, but among Americans between ages 18 and 29, young Americans, 56 percent had an unfavorable view. As it happens, American politics right now is dominated by people over 65, but it won’t be forever”
“And there are many of us who warned of this exact thing happening, who said, if you lose moral legitimacy, you will not have the world’s good will when you need it most, who said it is a problem for the Jewish state to not be seen, to not be a moral state.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/17/podcasts/transcript-ezra-...
Re: TikTok says it's not the algorithm, teens are just pro-Palestine
#163I think, in his recent podcast, Ezra Klein eloquently explained why young Americans have a less favourable view of Israel: “Maybe I’ll start here. I think something we’re seeing in the politics in America around Israel right now, I think it reflects three generations with very different lived experiences of what Israel is. You have older Americans, say, Joe Biden, who saw Israel as the haven for the Jews and who also…
I admittedly am young, but my introduction to this topic was through Chomsky’s writing from the 80s and 90s. The Israeli oppression seemed exactly as bad back then as it does now under this far right government.
If somehow Netanyahu gets replaced by a “sensible centrist” leader who still practices apartheid in exactly the same way, I guarantee you Ezra will be fawning over the new guy and the media will try and frame it as a “new era for Israeli-Palestinian relations”.
Re: TikTok says it's not the algorithm, teens are just pro-Palestine
#164There are 3 distinct positions one can take in this situation that all get wrapped up together and cause people to talk past each other. You can support Israel. You can support Palestine. You can support Hamas. Not wanting Palestinians to die by the hands of Israelis is conflated with Pro-Hamas by Israel supporters. I categorically don't support Hamas while also being incredibly skeptical of Israel's current actions…
you can support post zionist voices in the Israel Knesset advocating for reform while still condemning Israel apartheid state and the zionist lobby influence in western countries.
You can support the Palestinian Resistance against the military occupation while still condemning terrorist tactics.
Re: TikTok says it's not the algorithm, teens are just pro-Palestine
#165Earlier quoted context omitted.
America’s entry into Vietnam was based on manufactured consent and lies like the Gulf of Tonkin incident. Heck, Laos wasn’t ever involved as a “bad actor” yet ended up the most bombed country in the history of the world. You can thank Kissinger for that. In short: America was the bad guy.
No kidding lmao. That’s my point. But even with how bad a reputation that war has, growing up in America I seemed to learn points that demonized the resistance, painting their tactics as evil terrorism, their government as corrupt terrorist-leaders, their civilians all implicated as terrorist fighters, etc
Palestine, for instance, is an invaded nation. If one can claim Ukraine deserves to defend itself, one has to also claim Palestine has the same rights.
But… marketing and prop/agitprop makes one believe otherwise.
Re: TikTok says it's not the algorithm, teens are just pro-Palestine
#166Been remarkable to see various political commentators freak out about this, lunging to conspiracy theories that Tiktok is brainwashing people, then immediately pivot to attacking the US government for not being in control of its own brainwashing social media service. The polling is pretty clear. The public, especially the young public, has moved on this issue and is out of step with the positions of the elderly polit…
the level of inhumane treatment approved and supported by the west is what woke a lot of people up.
Re: TikTok says it's not the algorithm, teens are just pro-Palestine
#167"TikTok was slammed for its pro-Palestinian hashtags... But Facebook and Instagram show the same imbalance." - https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2023/11/13/tiktok-...
It may indicate that the hashtags are created by the users and not by the platform. Needs further research. /s
Re: TikTok says it's not the algorithm, teens are just pro-Palestine
#168Earlier quoted context omitted.
No kidding lmao. That’s my point. But even with how bad a reputation that war has, growing up in America I seemed to learn points that demonized the resistance, painting their tactics as evil terrorism, their government as corrupt terrorist-leaders, their civilians all implicated as terrorist fighters, etc
Indeed, all of that is part of the formula of which you speak. It is, in my mind, all the more reason to take with distrust anything any nation state says about its needs, goals, and “self defense.” Palestine, for instance, is an invaded nation. If one can claim Ukraine deserves to defend itself, one has to also claim Palestine has the same rights. But… marketing and prop/agitprop makes one believe otherwise.
Re: TikTok says it's not the algorithm, teens are just pro-Palestine
#169I think, in his recent podcast, Ezra Klein eloquently explained why young Americans have a less favourable view of Israel: “Maybe I’ll start here. I think something we’re seeing in the politics in America around Israel right now, I think it reflects three generations with very different lived experiences of what Israel is. You have older Americans, say, Joe Biden, who saw Israel as the haven for the Jews and who also…
Wow, I really disagree with this framing! I find the mass media (Ezra Klein included) like to frame things in terms of this big bad far-right government that’s making Israel do bad things. To me, that’s a totally separate issue from the Israeli apartheid. I admittedly am young, but my introduction to this topic was through Chomsky’s writing from the 80s and 90s. The Israeli oppression seemed exactly as bad back then…
Re: TikTok says it's not the algorithm, teens are just pro-Palestine
#170Earlier quoted context omitted.
Do you have any data to back up that assertion? As a teenager of the 90s, we were not all that globally conscious.
Just an anecdote, but I was a teen in the 00s. I became aware of the conflict my freshman year of college and my impression was that while complicated, among my peers (even Jewish ones) the greater balance of sympathies laid with the Palestinians.