Why aren't motherboards mostly USB-C by now? (2021) • Hacker News Board

Re: Why aren't motherboards mostly USB-C by now? (2021)

#431

Post by saiya-jin » Sun, Nov 19, 2023, 5:23 PM UTC

throwaway2037 wrote: post #375

saiya-jin wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't comment on USB-C yet and obviously case point 1, but on my desktop tower (Fractal Design 6, so should be quality) I have for cca 5 years, the frontal USB-A connectors which are used most often, 2 out of 4 are already dead (I'd say maybe 500 insertions altogether, definitely not more). 1 is sort of in between, sometimes works, sometimes doesn't. I generally know very well how to take care of electronics and thos…

I like this post. No trolling: Did you report the issue to Fractal? I am sure they wish to hear your valuable feedback. They might also offer to replace your case with the latest version! P.S. I am not a shill for Fractal, but a faithful owner.

Tank you for the advice, I guess too lazy to deal with logistics and customs (living in Switzerland, some stuff trivial in US is... not so trivial in more diverse Europe). On top of not really having desktop working for who knows how long.

Plus planning to build new desktop soon, I'll still probably go with them (Define 7 is my pick so far), I think I had just bad luck since they have quite solid reputation and most other cases are not to my taste or needs.

Re: Why aren't motherboards mostly USB-C by now? (2021)

#432

Post by briansm » Sun, Nov 19, 2023, 5:27 PM UTC

onetimeuse92304 wrote: post #410

diffeomorphism wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is your opinion on magnetic usb c adapters? For about 10€ you get 140W charging and 40Gbps. Compared to magsafe it is not recessed (though that has not been an issue in my experience), but on the plus side it also does data, video and is universal . Currently using the same type of adapter for my laptop, phone and tablet with the ends on various chargers and docking stations.

I had a number of them from two or three different brands. They had tendency to cause sparking and I lost at least one phone due to it. The phone was fine but it lost ability to be charged through the USB port. And because it did not have wireless charging, when the battery ran out it became an expensive brick.

Yup, I lost a chromebook that way. I think magnetic connections are fine for 5V power with no data line, but as soon as you add more connections and try increasing voltage/power you are asking for trouble.

Re: Why aren't motherboards mostly USB-C by now? (2021)

#433

Post by iopq » Sun, Nov 19, 2023, 5:30 PM UTC

at_a_remove wrote: post #88

PS/2 connectors lived on motherboards for a very very long time after mice and keyboards went to USB.

The initial roll out of USB mice was on 125Hz polling interval. The PS/2 mice were faster at first because they sent the signal immediately with no delay.

You can easily see the difference - with 125Hz it's impossible to draw a good circle with a mouse since it will always draw short straight lines

Re: Why aren't motherboards mostly USB-C by now? (2021)

#434

Post by anonymouskimmer » Sun, Nov 19, 2023, 5:38 PM UTC

dangus wrote: post #425

dehrmann wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not a fair comparison considering how compatible USB-C is with USB 3.0 A/B.

Compatibility wasn’t what motivated people to switch away from the parallel port, 56k modem, nor the floppy disk. Consider this exercise: The Nintendo Switch is the third best-selling console of all time. Walk me through how you would design it if the only port was USB-A.

Back in 1998 there were 4 or 5 main port types. And today there are still 4 or 5 main port types (with bluetooth as well). Compatibility was indeed the reason to switch to USB in the first place, as the universal serial bus made plug-and-play real. No reason not to have two USB port types, except device thinness.

The only issue the parallel port, 56k modem, and floppy disk share in common is throughput. This isn't a problem with USB-A compared to USB-C (until USB 4.0 becomes mainstream).

Re: Why aren't motherboards mostly USB-C by now? (2021)

#435

Post by throwuxiytayq » Sun, Nov 19, 2023, 5:41 PM UTC

Hedepig wrote: post #310

userbinator wrote: post #154

My experience has shown that USB C connectors are far more fragile than A, and every time I plug one in, for some reason the fit just feels vague and unsatisfying. An A plug, when you get it the right way, slides in solidly. As others have mentioned, C seems to have been designed to be the smallest possible, which makes sense for mobile devices, but not for a desktop and its peripherals.

At the risk of sounding a bit dumb, I shorted my motherboard with a USB A, it felt like I got it right, and pushed it in, at which point it shutdown. Fortunately there didn't seem to be any permanent damage

Happens to the best of us. I also had a bit of a scare like that recently. The only thing worse than a non-reversible connector is one that breaks (or fries your device) when you insert it the wrong way...

Re: Why aren't motherboards mostly USB-C by now? (2021)

#436

Post by fnordpiglet » Sun, Nov 19, 2023, 5:41 PM UTC

layer8 wrote: post #17

fnordpiglet wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost every device I’ve bought in 2023 is usb-c now, even low end stuff, and keyboards and mice. By 2025 I’d expect it’ll be rare and unusual to see a micro port on any new device. USB A is definitely legacy.

PCs still come with half a dozen or more USB-A ports and only a single USB-C port (if you're lucky). Dongles, flash drives, webcams and the like are still prominently USB-A. Logitech's lineup is still mostly USB-A. I'm not sure that there will even be a full transition to USB-C, but if so, it will take quite a while.

PC motherboards are often like a study in the history of PC motherboards with vestigial functionality that hasn’t been in widespread use in decades. That’s a fairly poor indicator, and I think it largely happens to buffer the feature sheet, take advantage of cheap pricing on components over time, and copy and paste functionality in their design software. It’s over. The only place for a USB-A is on an aftermarket USB hub. That’s ok. It was nice while it lasted, but it’s time to move on.

Re: Why aren't motherboards mostly USB-C by now? (2021)

#437

Post by bxparks » Sun, Nov 19, 2023, 5:45 PM UTC

pseudostem wrote: post #212

bxparks wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup, I don't own a single device that uses USB-C either: laptops, tablets, phones, keyboards, mouses, flash drives, network storage devices, routers, wifi access points, printers, scanners, kindles, microcontroller boards, calculators, rechargeable battery chargers, wireless temperature monitors, etc. Everything is USB-A (to micro-B, sometimes mini-B). Still mad at Apple for removing USB-A. I understand adding USB-C.…

When buying an expensive (relatively) computer was a big deal in my house, I had a hard time convincing my dad about the iBook G3 which didn't come with a floppy drive. Apple has been at it since the dawn of time.

I think Apple made a terrible mistake. But I am not worth $3 trillion, so who am I to argue? But I will piss into the wind anyway:

The biggest difference between USB-A and floppy/CD/DVD drive is the network effect. USB-A is an interface between 2 devices, so its usefulness is measured as an O(N^2). It allows all my laptops to connect to any of my peripherals. To replace USB-A, I would need to replace all my laptops and all my peripherals. A floppy drive, on the other hand, is an O(N) device for the most part. Its usefulness is mostly limited to the single device that it is installed. (Sure, floppy disks are shared between computers, but I would say that this is a less frequent use-case.)

The other difference between USB-A and floppy is that the USB-A is "good enough" for almost all use cases. My keyboard, mouse, flash drives, USB-ethernet adapters, all work perfectly fine with USB-A. In contrast, going from a floppy to a CD increased the capacity by 1000X. From CD to a flash drive, we got another factor of 10X to 100X. And much faster random access. A floppy became "NOT good enough" very quickly.

I see USB-A existing for the foreseeable future, the next 10-20 years, because of the network effect, because it is good enough for most things, and because it is slightly cheaper than USB-C.

Re: Why aren't motherboards mostly USB-C by now? (2021)

#438

Post by gweinberg » Sun, Nov 19, 2023, 6:08 PM UTC

toast0 wrote: post #217

gweinberg wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it's a chicken and egg thing, but why do we still have usb-a keyboards and mice and thumb drives? wouldn't it make more sense for them all to be usb-c?

I have at least 10 computers in my house, and none of them have more than one usb-c port. More of them have zero. Two of those with a single usb-c are motherboards purchased in the last year or so. If a mouse or keyboard or thumb drive expects to be used by an apple computer, or a phone, usb-c is the right answer. If it wants to be plugged into a PC, usb-a is a better choice. USB-C instead of any flavor of USB-B make…

Yeah, that's what I mean by "chicken and egg": We have all these usb A ports because that's what the peripherals expect, and we have usb-a peripherals because that's what we have ports for. My laptop has just one c port which I connect to a hub with a bunch of A ports. My desktop doesn't have any c ports at all. My car has one A port which connects to the phone for navigation (navigation using bluetooth doesn't work) and a whole bunch of c ports which are for charging only.

Re: Why aren't motherboards mostly USB-C by now? (2021)

#439

Post by KineticLensman » Sun, Nov 19, 2023, 6:09 PM UTC

Symbiote wrote: post #414

KineticLensman wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of them actually had an end slot that could be tightened / untightened by a regular screwdriver It took me ages to realise this.

In the 1980s and presumably before, plugs like this often only had screws you needed a screwdriver to tighten. I don't know if this was to prevent people disconnecting things, or if the expectation was that once connected, things should stay that way for years.

It helped me a lot when I had a colleague who had a strong workman's hands and who could not be found at the end of presentations where he had set up the projector's cabling.

Re: Why aren't motherboards mostly USB-C by now? (2021)

#440

Post by duskwuff » Sun, Nov 19, 2023, 6:12 PM UTC

janoc wrote: post #302

arcticbull wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's going to depend on the connector. Plenty have through-hole mounts. You can also get surface-mount type A connectors.

They all do. Yet it still doesn't help. Those 4 little retaining lugs are fixed into the board only by solder, which is fragile and will crack after a while, esp. when the connector is mated/demated constantly and forces are applied to it. USB A has those lugs much larger and usually also bent under the board or twisted, so the connector isn't fixed into the PCB only by solder. USB C and micro USB are mostly designed…

> Those 4 little retaining lugs are fixed into the board only by solder,

You're saying this as though there's a single design of USB-C cable to board connector. There are, in fact, many different designs, including many with "lugs" which go through the board, as well as mid-mount connectors which use the material of the PCB as structural support.