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I Hacked the Magic Mouse

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Re: I Hacked the Magic Mouse

#121

Post by GuB-42 »

mslt wrote: post #81
goosedragons wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it was entirely to recycle the design and tooling of the Magic Mouse 1 which used AA batteries. The Magic Trackpad 2 and Magic Keyboard came out the exact same day as the MM2 but both of those happily work plugged in and even work wired while plugged in.

Supply chain guy - This is it right here. Hardware accessories like mice aren’t driving substantial sales or revenue; they’re just a cost of doing business if you sell PCs. But swapping tooling and retraining staff on assembly is extremely disruptive for a manufacturer. That disruption is passed back to the 1st party brand in incremental FOB and per-unit surcharge. The incremental cost eats at your margin, which eats…

The mouse sells for $79, it is a rather expensive mouse, and the Macs that come bundled with that mouse are really expensive computers.

Also that's Apple we are talking about, they are huge and can use manufacturing processes no one else can afford to use. And if it can improve their design even a tiny bit, they do. For example, when designing injection molded plastic parts, most designers feature what is called a draft angle, which mean the walls are not straight and parallel but at an angle, this is to help the part come out of the mold easily. Not Apple. Apple want its walls straight because they think it looks better, and they do what it takes to do it, even if it is much harder and expensive.

So, no, I don't believe Apple will compromise its design for technical details like swapping tooling and retraining staff, especially considering that the product has been out in its current form for more than a decade. They have more than enough resources to do exactly the mouse they want.

I also don't believe the "it comes for free with an iMac so no one cares" argument. Again, Apple attention to details is legendary and people pay good money for that, and it is not like they are bundling a cheap plastic mouse like most manufacturers, it is one of the most premium looking mouse on the market, with unique features.

All that to say that it has to be a deliberate choice, not a quirk of the manufacturing process.

Re: I Hacked the Magic Mouse

#122

Post by goosedragons »

GuB-42 wrote: post #121
mslt wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Supply chain guy - This is it right here. Hardware accessories like mice aren’t driving substantial sales or revenue; they’re just a cost of doing business if you sell PCs. But swapping tooling and retraining staff on assembly is extremely disruptive for a manufacturer. That disruption is passed back to the 1st party brand in incremental FOB and per-unit surcharge. The incremental cost eats at your margin, which eats…

The mouse sells for $79, it is a rather expensive mouse, and the Macs that come bundled with that mouse are really expensive computers. Also that's Apple we are talking about, they are huge and can use manufacturing processes no one else can afford to use. And if it can improve their design even a tiny bit, they do. For example, when designing injection molded plastic parts, most designers feature what is called a dr…

Really? Apple recycles designs ALL the time. And they will compromise design to do it. Look at the SE iPhones, low-end iPads, etc.

It's the Tim Cook playbook. FFS they regularly sell years old computers.

Re: I Hacked the Magic Mouse

#123

Post by andrei_says_ »

ryandrake wrote: post #36

Good for this guy, wow. Nice project. I always thought that the Magic Mouse was really the ideal technology for interacting with a Mac--just too bad that it's so unergonomic. I can't prove it, but I blame a decade of Magic Mouse use for my very painful RSI, which I now have the pleasure of experiencing using any mouse at all. Apple's input devices are beautiful, but they totally blow comfort. It's as if their industr…

1. Similar extremely negative experience with the Magic Mouse. My take is it’s designed for aesthetics.

2. For the longest time I stopped using a mouse to alleviate RSI. Started using a Wacom tablet as a touchpad with my non-mouse hand.

3. A vertical mouse design allowed me to start using a mouse again and so far I’m ok. In my case it’s the Logitech vertical lift.

Re: I Hacked the Magic Mouse

#124

Post by tinus_hn »

zozbot234 wrote: post #45
karmakaze wrote: post #25

The photos show why every magic mouse I've had always wore funny with the 'right button' getting mushy. There's only one microswitch and the right one is just a leaf spring.

> There's only one microswitch Classic Apple mouse design. They never change, do they?

Why are you even buying that inferior hardware? Apple can’t do anything right, right?

Re: I Hacked the Magic Mouse

#125

Post by premysl »

hahamaster wrote: post #82

There are thousands of mice available on the market, and almost all of them can be used on a Mac. It's strange that anyone bothers to fix any mouse. Just buy a mouse that fits your requirements.

Few, if any, other mice are touchpads. The Magic Mouse is more of a touchpad that happens to be capable of being used as a mouse.

Re: I Hacked the Magic Mouse

#126

Post by karmakaze »

narrowtux wrote: post #66
zozbot234 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's only one microswitch Classic Apple mouse design. They never change, do they?

Think about having one plane (the entire glass) pressing 2 microswitches. Debouncing one switch is hard enough, now you've got to debounce 2, and detect if the user was doing a really fast double click, or just pressed in the center of the mouse.

The problem Apple created for themselves is staying true to their 'one mouse button' philosophy for too long and literally.

Re: I Hacked the Magic Mouse

#127

Post by monocularvision »

wredue wrote: post #103
mslt wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Supply chain guy - This is it right here. Hardware accessories like mice aren’t driving substantial sales or revenue; they’re just a cost of doing business if you sell PCs. But swapping tooling and retraining staff on assembly is extremely disruptive for a manufacturer. That disruption is passed back to the 1st party brand in incremental FOB and per-unit surcharge. The incremental cost eats at your margin, which eats…

Oh there’s no shortage of people that defend the MM. That anyone uses this mouse for an extended period is insane. It’s heavy a fuck, not ergonomic in the slightest, has insane uncomfortable edging, and cannot be used plugged in. This mouse has no redeeming qualities at all.

I love the touch sensitive surface and prefer it over any other mouse with a spinning disc for scrolling. Is there another mouse out there that has a similar surface? I would switch in a heartbeat because I agree with the rest of your criticisms.

Re: I Hacked the Magic Mouse

#128

Post by gymbeaux »

ryandrake wrote: post #36

Good for this guy, wow. Nice project. I always thought that the Magic Mouse was really the ideal technology for interacting with a Mac--just too bad that it's so unergonomic. I can't prove it, but I blame a decade of Magic Mouse use for my very painful RSI, which I now have the pleasure of experiencing using any mouse at all. Apple's input devices are beautiful, but they totally blow comfort. It's as if their industr…

I first experienced “RSI” with the 1st Gen Magic Mouse (the one that took AA batteries that needed to be replaced every other month). Terrible, terrible design. And they kept it exactly the same for Magic Mouse 2.

“RSI” is not a diagnosis, but rather an umbrella term for “anything repetitive that causes you injury or pain”. The “treatment” for RSI depends on which RSI you have. Even if you Google what all those RSIs are, you probably won’t get a comprehensive list. It’s an underserved area of orthopedic medicine. Anyway, figure out which RSI you have- skin cancer and stomach cancer are treated very differently, and similarly, carpal tunnel syndrome and tendonitis are treated very differently.

Most people with an “RSI” have pain in their hands, but that pain could be caused by an impinged nerve (impingement can occur anywhere between the spine and the carpal tunnel in the wrist), overworked muscles, damaged tendons (very hard to do if you’re under the age of ~50), or arthritis (again, unlikely if you’re under ~50).

Arthritis is very easy to diagnose- you just need to look at an X-Ray of your hand. Conversely, Thoracic Outlet Syndrome is very DIFFICULT to diagnose, partially because many orthopedic surgeons aren’t familiar with it, and partially because nerve impingement is so deep inside you (the shoulder/upper chest area).

My experience with 3 orthopedic surgeons in my city has been consistent- they don’t have the time or attention span to really listen to your symptoms and want to diagnose you ASAP so they can move on to the next patient. Whether this is an issue of our healthcare system or the doctors themselves, I can’t say, but I can say that each one got the diagnosis wrong. They all heard “tingling in the hands” and jumped on carpal tunnel syndrome, even though there was evidence to suggest it wasn’t.

A lot of people swear by the ergonomic/split keyboards, and I’m not sure many realize that those keyboards are mostly adjusting your SHOULDERS- nothing to do with your wrists or hands. They also reduce the pronation your arms are in, which can be beneficial to fatigued muscles, and in rare cases alleviate nerve impingement that occurs around the pronator teres muscle in the arm, but usually impingement there is a result of something like bodybuilding rather than typing on a keyboard for a living. Anyway, if these keyboards do alleviate symptoms, great- but consider that your muscles may be tight in your shoulders, and your posture is probably not what it should be. The keyboard is probably a temporary fix if you don’t stretch, exercise and practice good posture in the “shoulder girdle”.

Re: I Hacked the Magic Mouse

#129

Post by gymbeaux »

zukzuk wrote: post #73
tempodox wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With the exception of a few select programs where a mouse is indispensable, I'm a happy Magic Trackpad user for over 10 years now. No RSI ever.

I developed pretty nasty tenosynovitis in my inner wrist from using a Magic Pad over a year. I even tried switching to using it with my left hand instead of my right, and eventually developed the same problem in the other wrist. It got bad enough I opted for cortisone injections. This was about 10 years ago. I’ve avoided Apple’s input devices since, opting for proper ergonomic keyboards and mice, with no further RSI…

There are some studies out there that show that trackpads are actually some of the most “taxing” computer input devices in existence. Here’s one: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S16998...

Re: I Hacked the Magic Mouse

#130

Post by gymbeaux »

jmholla wrote: post #100
ryandrake wrote: post #36

Good for this guy, wow. Nice project. I always thought that the Magic Mouse was really the ideal technology for interacting with a Mac--just too bad that it's so unergonomic. I can't prove it, but I blame a decade of Magic Mouse use for my very painful RSI, which I now have the pleasure of experiencing using any mouse at all. Apple's input devices are beautiful, but they totally blow comfort. It's as if their industr…

Have you tried vertical mice? I hvae one and it helps with my carpal tunnel (which incidentally I'm pretty sure was caused by Mac's butterfly keyboards and their lack of travel distance).

I’m not aware of a scientific study that supports the notion that computer/keyboard use leads to CTS. Conversely, I’m aware of many studies that show CTS being caused by the use of vibrating tools + genetics.

While society associates CTS with computer use, it’s actually the dentists and dental hygienists who suffer the most from it. Additionally, CTS predominantly affects women. It’s suspected this is due to their having slightly smaller wrists than men, on average, and CTS is simply compression of the median nerve at the carpal tunnel, which has the median nerve, plus many tendons, going through it.

I would be curious to know if any of the provocative tests for CTS increase your symptoms (eg bending your wrist at 90 degrees for 1 minute). It may be that your nerve impingement is occurring further up (like the shoulder area), and holding your mouse hand less interiorly-rotated is relieving the impingement in the shoulder girdle.

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