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FSL: A License for the Bazaar, Not the Cathedral

lucumr.pocoo.org

81–90 of 201 posts

Re: FSL: A License for the Bazaar, Not the Cathedral

#81
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entire justification of the existence of the license talks about the problem of the "harmful freeloaders".

The people we're concerned about are not the hundreds of thousands of Sentry users, including those that self-host. We're concerned about people who have taken the software for the purposes of competing directly against us, that hinders our ability to monetize the work. Monetizing the work helps us continue improving the software and distribute it for free use, benefitting those aforementioned real users (e.g. https:…

There seems some kind of dissonance for me.

You create a new license to keep competitors artificially in check.

Doesn't this hint to a flawed business model?

Re: FSL: A License for the Bazaar, Not the Cathedral

#82
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, fixed it.

It feels like you intentionally omitted his immediate follow-up to your quoted comment: > > my theory about embrace/extend/extinguish seems to be as accurate as I thought. > This is confused. Embrace/extend/extinguish means to initially participate in an open standard and then extend the standard in such a way that the non-extended version is sidelined. I'd encourage people to read the entire thread rather than seize…

> But if you believe pursuing additional licensing mechanisms means we're destroying OSS, there is probably little I can do to disavow you of that notion.

Speaking of disingenuous, every time the sentry people come in here to talk it's always strawmen. My issue is with sentry trying to redefine open source, not your creation of new licenses. If you want to put out proprietary or shared source licenses I'm cool with that, but when you try to mislead people into thinking those licenses are open source I think you're crossing a line. Your head of open source himself said he wants to redefine open source in a way that restricts how people can use software. That is the issue.

Re: FSL: A License for the Bazaar, Not the Cathedral

#83
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entire justification of the existence of the license talks about the problem of the "harmful freeloaders".

> "harmful freeloaders". The phrase you quoted "harmful freeloaders" does not appear in any of our texts. The word we used are "free-riders" and that does not refer to our users. Our users are free to use the software without contributions in any matter they want. What is not acceptable is to use it to run a competing SaaS business.

[deleted]

Re: FSL: A License for the Bazaar, Not the Cathedral

#84
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. If I write software I can release it how I want. I can release it as gpl. If someone approaches me wanting a closed source version I can do that. If I submit a patch to the Linux kernel I can also give that patch to Microsoft to put in Windows. The closed code isn't 'based on' Apache code. The copyright holders have released the older code as Apache.

That is true in principle but not how the FSL functions. The FSL ceases to exists at the two year anniversary and turns into another license (eg: Apache 2). If it were to turn into GPL the before and after code pieces would not be compatible. The original author would retain copyright and they alone could make that software available under another license (eg: dual licensing) but nobody else would be in that position…

Yes.

I release software X under license that turns to Y license after z years.

I am free to take exactly the same code and do the same at a later date.

Or are you referring to code by a second submitter where their code goes gpl, but then you need to re get their permission to restart the clock.

I still think you could work around that if the license is structured correctly.

Treat the source tree as it stands at a point in time as a release that becomes open source 2 years later, but keep the core project closed.

So all code in the project is always available to be in the project.

Re: FSL: A License for the Bazaar, Not the Cathedral

#85
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What's concerning, though, is that it's completely unclear that the author understands why this license makes sense, so it's liable to be misused. It feels more accidentally-stumbled-upon. The author of the post (me) was part of the group at Sentry that created that license. I can’t dispel your interpretation that my writing is “confused” but I can assure you that a lot of thought went into the license. That blog p…

For what it's worth, your writing is confused. For instance: > There cannot be a limbo where the rights holder prevents the flourishing of a fork out of lack of interest or fear. The entire point of this license is to prevent forks of software. It makes it especially easy to do so by simply pushing small incompatible changes on a two-year schedule. But the really strange part about this is that it assumes a developer…

I have no skin in this game, but reading your comments frustrates me

Re: FSL: A License for the Bazaar, Not the Cathedral

#87
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The people we're concerned about are not the hundreds of thousands of Sentry users, including those that self-host. We're concerned about people who have taken the software for the purposes of competing directly against us, that hinders our ability to monetize the work. Monetizing the work helps us continue improving the software and distribute it for free use, benefitting those aforementioned real users (e.g. https:…

There seems some kind of dissonance for me. You create a new license to keep competitors artificially in check. Doesn't this hint to a flawed business model?

Sentry was already using BUSL (Business Source License) for 4+ years with a non-competitive Additional Use Grant. So we had already been doing this for a long time.

The new license actually allows for more competition, because it has a shorter change date to permissive OSS than the aforementioned prior license (2 years vs 3 years).

So another read of this is: the business model is going great, so much so that we're comforable switching to a more progressive license vs. what we had.

Re: FSL: A License for the Bazaar, Not the Cathedral

#88
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entire justification of the existence of the license talks about the problem of the "harmful freeloaders".

> "harmful freeloaders". The phrase you quoted "harmful freeloaders" does not appear in any of our texts. The word we used are "free-riders" and that does not refer to our users. Our users are free to use the software without contributions in any matter they want. What is not acceptable is to use it to run a competing SaaS business.

> The phrase you quoted "harmful freeloaders" does not appear in any of our texts.

This is nit-picking pedantry. The term "free-riders" appears six times on this site https://fsl.software/, but my bad for using a slightly different term that has the same meaning. From your very public announcement and linking to the text, it's pretty clear what you think of some of your users.

> Our users are free to use the software without contributions in any matter they want. What is not acceptable is to use it to run a competing SaaS business.

You're redefining the concept of "user" to suit your own ends.

Re: FSL: A License for the Bazaar, Not the Cathedral

#89

It's very hard for me to take anything which starts with CatB seriously. It was very charismatic, beating up a strawman which didn't exist, and zero of it played out as expected. Eric Raymond is mostly gone, as everything he's touched has failed. Open-source has started to realize Richard was right about ethics, as the two movements have increasingly converged. Richard, for his part, is still marginalized, socially a…

> What's concerning, though, is that it's completely unclear that the author understands why this license makes sense, so it's liable to be misused. It feels more accidentally-stumbled-upon. The author of the post (me) was part of the group at Sentry that created that license. I can’t dispel your interpretation that my writing is “confused” but I can assure you that a lot of thought went into the license. That blog p…

> I can’t dispel your interpretation that my writing is “confused” but I can assure you that a lot of thought went into the license.

That doesn't contradict what I wrote.

The thought shows.

What it doesn't show is understanding or (and I don't mean this aggressively, but I'm worried it will read as such) competence.

To give an analogy, if a lawyer came learned programming and wrote a very clever piece of code, but without any of the experience or background that develops from having been a software engineer or formally trained, you might get something interesting, but probably not necessarily helpful. There's a body of things which people in the field know from decades of collective experience which they would be missing.

When there's a post like mine, there are two possibilities:

1) You're missing something

2) I'm missing something

I would at least be open-minded to the former, since that would have implications which could adversely impact your business.

To be crystal clear: I don't think the license is bad, stupid, or unreasonable (your previous one, in contrast, was). I would never do business with BUSL. I would with FSL. It's a reasonable scheme.

However, the connecting logic and analysis between the license and business strategy is missing, confused, or incorrect. It's also incorrect about the implications of GPL/AGPL and dual-license models. Without that logic, you will misuse it. You won't be able to leverage the advantages of open-source, and you might be blindsided by the downside.

You're trying to do something novel. In business, I tend to think about things which are:

- Competitive advantages. There, I'm trying to do something better, novel, and develop unique expertise.

- Everything else. There, I follow best practices, outsource, and otherwise don't invest.

You're very much doing something novel outside an area of your (personal) area of expertise. My advise would be to either:

(1) Go with best practices

(2) Develop expertise.

For the latter, my advice would be to talk to someone like myself, Eben Moglen, or otherwise, until you can articulate their arguments, how they think about licenses, understand why that's reasonable, and articulate their arguments to others (not cynical versions of them) to the point where someone like myself believes you understand them. At that point, you're ready to innovate from there to gain business advantage. Before that, you're not; innovation is likely to lead to market disadvantage.

It may also be that people within your business have that background (I don't know how your positioned). Perhaps Heather and Chad know something you don't. In that case, it's incumbent for you (and others inside) to pick it up, so you can leverage it in day-to-day decisions and outwards communications.

Consider me as a potential customer. If I read a blog post like yours, it will reduce your odds of a sale, since it raised red flags about your competence in my head. If nothing else, if you understand that perspective, you can avoid raising red flags (even if I'm the one missing something; others will be missing the same thing too). It's good business to dispel the notion your writing is confused, since sales is all about winning hearts and minds.

Re: FSL: A License for the Bazaar, Not the Cathedral

#90
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but then just do proprietary and then release the software under Apache. What's the actual point of the FSL?

I wish the article had spelled this out a little better, but the reason many businesses have open source licenses for their software is to assuage their customers’ concerns about lock in and permanence (will your startup be around later? Will you jack up the price? Don’t worry, it’s open source). The downside, of course, is that it’s harder to sell stuff if it’s also available for free. I believe the theory here is t…

I think the direction of your comment is right, with two caveats:

> but is closed now to create scarcity

1. It's not about scarcity. The software has always been given away for free for non-competing use (it was licensed under BUSL for 4+ years with a non-compete Additional Use Grant before this change).

Sentry's cloud offering (sentry.io) has always "competed" with its own free self-hosted users, and the new license doesn't change that. It's strictly about preventing free-riders who monetize the work without giving back.

> it’s different from simply switching to Apache later because it’s the promise that’s doing the heavy lifting

2. I agree, but I want to clarify that it's not a promise (which could be broken). It's a grant that is written into the source code itself (in the LICENSE file). If you possess a copy of the code today with this LICENSE file, in two years that copy will be Apache 2.0.

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