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Why aren't motherboards mostly USB-C by now? (2021)

philip.greenspun.com

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Re: Why aren't motherboards mostly USB-C by now? (2021)

#391

Post by [deleted] »

arcticbull wrote: post #178
aslilac wrote: post #3

calling USB A “legacy” and a “relic” is so misplaced. we all still own USB A devices. I challenge the author to go find a wired keyboard or mouse that comes with a USB C plug. it’s possible, but not easy. the thing is, we could just have both! this isn’t some winner/loser scenario. the real question should be why these computers with enough bandwidth for 11+ connectors don’t at least split the difference with 6/5 of…

USB A was released in 1996, it's older than I suspect the majority of HN readers at this point. An A to C cable is entirely passive, so not exactly a big deal to get a cheap adapter. Not sure I'd rely on keyboards as the standard bearer for 'not a relic' many of them still support PS/2 via passive adapter. That was announced in 1987 and is older than me.

[deleted]

Re: Why aren't motherboards mostly USB-C by now? (2021)

#392

Post by ryukafalz »

fennecbutt wrote: post #319
userbinator wrote: post #154

My experience has shown that USB C connectors are far more fragile than A, and every time I plug one in, for some reason the fit just feels vague and unsatisfying. An A plug, when you get it the right way, slides in solidly. As others have mentioned, C seems to have been designed to be the smallest possible, which makes sense for mobile devices, but not for a desktop and its peripherals.

I notice a lot of people are arguing against usb c, but in reality: devices are designed for the average consumer, not us special HN peeps, usb c is the way forward, we can't use a bulky almost industrial USB connection forever, having a single type of connection has so many benefits, if someone exceeds the plug/unplug rating or the socket breaks for some other reason...it can just be repaired. Everyone arguing again…

I like USB-C myself, but I don't think this is a good argument:

> if someone exceeds the plug/unplug rating or the socket breaks for some other reason...it can just be repaired.

...when consumer tech companies these days tend to make repair much more difficult than it used to be.

Re: Why aren't motherboards mostly USB-C by now? (2021)

#393

Post by MaxBarraclough »

onetimeuse92304 wrote: post #250
arcticbull wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interestingly enough, they're specced the opposite way. > Standard USB has a minimum rated lifetime of 1,500 cycles of insertion and removal, the Mini-USB receptacle increased this to 5,000 cycles, and the newer Micro-USB and USB-C receptacles are both designed for a minimum rated lifetime of 10,000 cycles of insertion and removal. [1] > To accomplish this, a locking device was added and the leaf-spring was moved fro…

The insertion cycles are only for proper insertion. Like when you are looking at it and doing it at a correct angle. Also, rated lifetime does not take into account things like tugging the cable to the side of your PC because your foot got tangled in it. USB C is extremely fragile due to its size and not much can be done to help it. USB C might be created to withstand more insertion cycles. After all it is meant to b…

> Nobody I know is plugging in their keyboard or mouse multiple times a day.

If you securely store a laptop at the end of each workday then you're up to 1 cycle per day minimum. It will be more than that if you're required to secure the laptop during coffee breaks and/or if you work from several places in a work-day.

Re: Why aren't motherboards mostly USB-C by now? (2021)

#394

Post by phero_cnstrcts »

fennecbutt wrote: post #319
userbinator wrote: post #154

My experience has shown that USB C connectors are far more fragile than A, and every time I plug one in, for some reason the fit just feels vague and unsatisfying. An A plug, when you get it the right way, slides in solidly. As others have mentioned, C seems to have been designed to be the smallest possible, which makes sense for mobile devices, but not for a desktop and its peripherals.

I notice a lot of people are arguing against usb c, but in reality: devices are designed for the average consumer, not us special HN peeps, usb c is the way forward, we can't use a bulky almost industrial USB connection forever, having a single type of connection has so many benefits, if someone exceeds the plug/unplug rating or the socket breaks for some other reason...it can just be repaired. Everyone arguing again…

I’d honestly prefer usb a if it wasn’t for the fact that I have to try plugging it in four times before I succeed.

Re: Why aren't motherboards mostly USB-C by now? (2021)

#395

Post by wjdp »

userbinator wrote: post #154

My experience has shown that USB C connectors are far more fragile than A, and every time I plug one in, for some reason the fit just feels vague and unsatisfying. An A plug, when you get it the right way, slides in solidly. As others have mentioned, C seems to have been designed to be the smallest possible, which makes sense for mobile devices, but not for a desktop and its peripherals.

We've had a problem with the cables provided with ThinkVision USB-C monitors. They're so horribly stiff either end gets quite a lot of force exerted on it. We use them for hot-desk setups at work and I've seen multiple with the metal part of the plug broken off from the plastic shroud.

I've asked for some "Cable Matters" ones to be bought as that's a brand I recognise and _think_ is good, we'll see!

Re: Why aren't motherboards mostly USB-C by now? (2021)

#396

Post by marcosdumay »

Macha wrote: post #381
rightbyte wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> yes, connectors got much better in the past decades Really? How is e.g. the HDMI connectors "better" than the VGA connectors? VGA connectors seems far more robust to me. Same with d-sub mouse connectors. I guess the signal rating is better now but the old ones didn't need high frequency capabilities.

You may only have dealt with your own devices. Yes, VGA devices were much harder to accidentally unplug or become loose than HDMI. But they were often far more solidly connected than e.g. the mount on a video card, or the attachment of a laptop motherboard to it's case. So you would find components which had been messed up internally by the use of a VGA connector as a leverage point.

Yep, harder to accidentally unplug is a large negative for a generic cable. There very few applications where it's a good thing, and connecting a computer to a display isn't one of them. IMO, DP in particular shouldn't have the locking mechanism.

But becoming loose without unpluging isn't good either.

Re: Why aren't motherboards mostly USB-C by now? (2021)

#397

Post by sokoloff »

janoc wrote: post #302
arcticbull wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's going to depend on the connector. Plenty have through-hole mounts. You can also get surface-mount type A connectors.

They all do. Yet it still doesn't help. Those 4 little retaining lugs are fixed into the board only by solder, which is fragile and will crack after a while, esp. when the connector is mated/demated constantly and forces are applied to it. USB A has those lugs much larger and usually also bent under the board or twisted, so the connector isn't fixed into the PCB only by solder. USB C and micro USB are mostly designed…

Mini USB-B is still not very robust in terms of connection the board. I’ve got a couple devices here where the port is ripped off the PCB. (I voluntarily [attempt to] repair devices for friends, so I see more than a typical rate of failed parts.)

By some definition, that’s evidence of unreasonable force, but it definitely happens and should be anticipated when you put the device in the hands of lots of gorillas.

Re: Why aren't motherboards mostly USB-C by now? (2021)

#398

Post by pier25 »

p1mrx wrote: post #8

USB-C was designed for highly-integrated mobile devices. Motherboard vendors don't want to deal with power delivery and DisplayPort, and users will be confused when that stuff doesn't work. When a USB-C port is out in space, rather than flat on a desk, C-to-A adapters create a lever arm that increases the risk of damage. Though this can be solved by using adapters with ~100mm of wire in the middle.

USBC is only a connector. It doesn't specify a protocol.

On Macs, USBC ports are used for both Thunderbolt and various USB protocols.

Re: Why aren't motherboards mostly USB-C by now? (2021)

#399

Post by fragmede »

nickpeterson wrote: post #372
arghwhat wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny you say that, I can tell from family experience that USB type A ports are quite fragile to a vertical tug as it breaks the internal plastic bar at its base so you're left with a hole full of floating copper pins. It of course requires more than a light tug, but less than you'd think. The USB-C housing is much more rigid than that of type A, so it should handle this much better. The thinner bar might also handle…

I really wish we’d end up with something like the old MagSafe.

maybe we can get that for USB-D in 2025 after the Apple magsafe patent runs out

Re: Why aren't motherboards mostly USB-C by now? (2021)

#400

Post by marcosdumay »

mordae wrote: post #308
fmajid wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Micro-USB had on paper better insertion/removal cycles than Mini-USB, but in practice Micro-USB connectors were flimsy garbage and Mini-USB fairly robust for the size.

Not exactly flimsy, but they often have super high friction, translating into some seriously rough handling.

And one messed up cable could force them enough so that they break.

USB-C solved this by demanding thick walls on every side of the cable's connector.

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