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280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

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Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#721

Post by houseatrielah »

fsckboy wrote: post #674
mdgrech23 wrote: post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Living in sky scrapers sucks and is not enjoyable. Same with living in suburbia. The sweet spot is densely packed urban areas that are built on the human scale.

living in skyscrapers is no different than living in any apartment building, except the larger number of apartments with nice views. what modern skyscapers are doing wrong is putting in only large-footprint high-end retail (like department stores) on the street level, or nothing at all. A zoning change to require small retail stalls at the street level would go a long way to making cities more livable. And all those…

It is different. if you are very high up there is too much wind for a balcony and you have no relationship with street life (people look like ants). 5-stories aka Paris-size is human scale, anything much taller isn't. The higher the floor, the less frequently people leave their building.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#722

Post by at_a_remove »

willio58 wrote: post #588
SamuelAdams wrote: post #543

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what happens when it is freezing or storming outside? Not everyone lives in LA. If you need proof that HN is a bubble, look no further than this thread.

Is your point that all handicapped people need cars to get around in bad weather? I understand not everyone lives somewhere with good weather, but I'll point you to look at cities that get a ton of weather and still manage to have good transportation like Montreal, Toronto, Chicago, Tokyo, etc. and many handicapped people make great use of the transportation in those cities. Physical and mental ability exists in a sp…

So, and I guess I will belabor the point, not all disabilities work the way you think.

I am freely mobile. But ... I have an extreme photosensitivity disorder. (At this point someone is going to make sunscreen noises and I sigh) There's a lot of us out there and we basically need to be under something to get around without accumulating more damage. During the night, I am completely free. During the day, I am wrapped up like the Invisible Man, scampering from one shadow to another, with layers and layers of protection. If I didn't have a car (with a special film covering the windshield, technically illegal), I don't know how I would get around.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#723

Post by cbozeman »

KennyBlanken wrote: post #474
cbozeman wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Public transit does not work in a place like Montana or Wyoming. Sorry. Too large, too sparsely populated. Same reason it won't work for most of Texas either. It's fine in Dallas or Austin, parts of Fort Worth... it doesn't scale to Lubbock or New Braunfels. A lot of people have no interest in living in your concrete jungle... myself included.

> Public transit does not work in a place like Montana or Wyoming. Sorry. Too large, too sparsely populated. And individual car ownership only works in those places because of the massive federal welfare they receive in the form of multi-billion-dollar federal highway grants. The federal government spends over $1800 per person per year on roadways in Montana.

And you don't eat without them.

A lot of so-called "smart people" on this website seem to forget where all their food is grown.

It isn't in Times Square.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#724

Post by camgunz »

lapetitejort wrote: post #615
CalRobert wrote: post #520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the hardest thing to get across is that _LIFE IS BETTER_ this way. Having 2,000 kgs of metal hurtling by at 80 kph half a meter from your six your old's head while you walk to school SUCKS. It's horrible. But hopping with my 4 year old in the cargo bike and my 6 year old on her own bike is sheer, utter, bliss. Little kids ringing their bells and chatting with new friends on the way to school is a joy that I f…

This morning a combination of sun in my eyes, a blind spot, and a dewy morning almost led me to run over two people legally crossing the street. My significant other had to scream at me to stop. I could have killed two people. All I was trying to do was get coffee. I need to get rid of this death machine fast.

I bumped a cyclist while I was edging out into a blind intersection (one of those that gets parked up all alongside it) because I was looking one way and he raced in front of me from the other. Like, neither of us really did anything wrong, but he was nearly severely injured and I nearly went to prison. Cars are dumb.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#725

Post by camgunz »

CalRobert wrote: post #520
camgunz wrote: post #83

I've said it before and I'll say it again: building the future around cars of any kind is completely unsustainable. We cannot reproduce the rates of rich world car ownership in the developing world without mass catastrophe (raw materials/labor needed for construction and maintenance, raw materials/labor/space needed for roads and parking lots, literal tons of waste--batteries, tires, steel, plastic, foam--, energy ne…

I think the hardest thing to get across is that _LIFE IS BETTER_ this way. Having 2,000 kgs of metal hurtling by at 80 kph half a meter from your six your old's head while you walk to school SUCKS. It's horrible. But hopping with my 4 year old in the cargo bike and my 6 year old on her own bike is sheer, utter, bliss. Little kids ringing their bells and chatting with new friends on the way to school is a joy that I f…

We also moved to NL and we love it, even though yeah there are surprisingly still lots of cars here. It's definitely the case that walking/biking has a hugely good effect on individuals and society. Just seeing people on the street, congregating, going from dinner to after dinner drinks, everything is just more human.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#726

Post by camgunz »

Enginerrrd wrote: post #702
camgunz wrote: post #687

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is harder than you'd think. There are something like 282 million cars in the US. Let's say we want to replace half of them with a zero emissions EV, so 140m, and those cost $25k. That's $3.5 trillion we're gonna burn, plus idk, dealing with 140m waste ICE cars. This is not a problem we're gonna solve with EVs any time soon.

Oh I understand the difficulties, I have designed a bunch of charge stations. (Civil Engineer) Most of the grid infrastructure I know of in my area is near capacity too and can't really accommodate new hookups. My point is just that I see a lot of 100% goals and I'd really like to shift the narrative to 90-95%.

Hah! Yeah ok fair. I think along with the 90/95 thing I'd like to see us think more in terms of incentives, trajectories, and underlying causes. People are practically entirely the products of systems and cultures, and whenever we're try interventions at the exit of the function they're uniformly despised.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#727

Post by atom058 »

rootusrootus wrote: post #298
thelastgallon wrote: post #2

We don't need a 4000 lb vehicle to move a ~200 lb person. In order of efficiency: (1) Walk (2) Unicycle, roller skate, scooter (no battery, very little material) (2) Bike (3) Electric bike (and all forms of newfangled electric: escooters, segways) (4) Electric motorbike or scooter (5) Mass transit (can be public/private) transportation: Electric trains (6) Mass transit (can be public/private) transportation: Electric…

> (5) Mass transit (can be public/private) transportation: Electric trains This depends quite a lot on ridership. E.g. a typical MAX train in Portland, filled at perhaps 10% capacity aside from a few narrow time periods in the morning and evening, loses out on efficiency to a Honda Civic with four people. Trains are heavy even when they are empty.

But most cars are not filled with 4 people: quite often it's only one or two

And many don't drive a Honda civic: they are driving the biggest, heaviest car they can get their hands on

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#728

Post by camgunz »

patagonia wrote: post #512
camgunz wrote: post #83

I've said it before and I'll say it again: building the future around cars of any kind is completely unsustainable. We cannot reproduce the rates of rich world car ownership in the developing world without mass catastrophe (raw materials/labor needed for construction and maintenance, raw materials/labor/space needed for roads and parking lots, literal tons of waste--batteries, tires, steel, plastic, foam--, energy ne…

To be completely explicit, you're telling anyone with any need or desire to pull a trailer or go off publicly planned and constructed roadways that their needs or desires are not even on the table for discussion. I don't believe it is in fact necessary to eliminate cars as a primary mode of transportation in the future in order to meet climate goals. But, even if it was, the argument just will not fly with many many…

To be fair I'm not saying ban all cars, but otherwise you're right. Over the last ~100 years a lot of cultures and activities have grown up around super easy car ownership and use. Just like, teaching your kid to drive is a big cultural thing. It's a huge lift, but the downsides of car-centric societies are pretty well known at this point.

I don't for a second think the US will do this, FWIW. We'll probably over the next 10-30 years give the highways and interstates to AI (at insane expense) and never slough off the scourge of SUVs in the last mile. The US probably has enough natural resources to manage this, though as fewer and fewer Americans want to be miners and auto workers the burden will shift internationally, which is its own moral issue. We'll still have all the problems of noise, tire pollution, pedestrian/cyclist/motorist deaths, drunk driving, waste cars, super inefficient use of energy and labor, and an increasingly isolated and sedentary society, but IMO it's clear the US is fine with all of that.

What I think will actually chafe us is watching other societies do better. It's already happening. The wealthier among us travel to Asian or European countries see how they're not car-centric, and feel envy. They agitate for it in their communities, which puts them--even more--at odds with other US cultures that love cars, and political strife intensifies. The elite will force auto manufacturers to stop producing ICEs, car America will rebel, blah blah blah.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#729

Post by camgunz »

actuallyalys wrote: post #333
camgunz wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really just don't think there's any benefit to trying to fix cars (I keep thinking "stop trying to make fetch/cars happen" from Mean Girls haha). My strong opinion is the way you fix the weight problem in EVs isn't to hope for better battery efficiency or w/e, it's to replace it w/ an ebike and a raincoat.

I largely agree, but it would still be a good problem to solve because it would make electric buses and the cars that can’t be replaced lighter.

I'm a little naive to the weight problem, is it really an issue for like, buses? Is this actually an area where trams (gasp!) are better?

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#730

Post by camgunz »

pharmakom wrote: post #703
camgunz wrote: post #83

I've said it before and I'll say it again: building the future around cars of any kind is completely unsustainable. We cannot reproduce the rates of rich world car ownership in the developing world without mass catastrophe (raw materials/labor needed for construction and maintenance, raw materials/labor/space needed for roads and parking lots, literal tons of waste--batteries, tires, steel, plastic, foam--, energy ne…

It doesn’t work in the developed world either. We all hate pollution, sitting in traffic, lack of green space, obesity, lack of childhood autonomy … and yet society seems incapable of coordinating on solving it. Well, except for the Netherlands.

Most of Europe is small, walkable cities. There are of course still highways and city roads, but most things here function as you're describing. Come on over, the water's warm ;)
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