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What if money expired?

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Re: What if money expired?

#151

Post by KomoD »

PopAlongKid wrote: post #101
pelorat wrote: post #76

In some places in Europe, like Sweden, when new bills are released, and if you don't get your old exchanged they will soon enough become worthless. So don't stuff cash in your matress or you'll lose it eventually.

Not that different in U.S. The older bills without modern anti-counterfeiting (colored threads, holograms, etc) already attract increased scrutiny (not exactly worthless, but heading in the same direction). I recently went to an In-N-Out with a $50 bill from around the turn of the century, and a manager had to be called over to inspect it.

That's very different, it was inspected but you could still use it...? It was not invalid.

Re: What if money expired?

#152

Post by from-nibly »

This is just taxes and inflation with different words. The reason the FED targets a certain amount of inflation is literally this. So people will spend their dang money and keep the economy rolling at whatever pace they deem healthy. Your money already expires.

Re: What if money expired?

#153

Post by klyrs »

stickfigure wrote: post #64
genman wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually no. Expiration of money and inflation can exist simultaneously. Expiration of money is an end of life cycle event of individual bills - it affects certain lump sum of money that will become void in corpore. The nominal value of the money will remain the same. Inflation is continuous devaluation of nominal value of all the money regardless of individual bills. If we discuss expiration of money then we should…

These seem easy to game, and would just generate a (pure dead-weight) industry of money persistence optimization. Alternatively, people would ditch their and buy instead. The whole thing sounds incredibly dumb.

What fool is going to buy that expiring currency with a stable currency?

Re: What if money expired?

#154

Post by klyrs »

amelius wrote: post #90
Throwfi44 wrote: post #14

Money do expire! There is inflation... I would like similar system for land ownership and buildings. Property taxes at level of 5%. In China land can not be owned, but only leased for 70 years.

> Money do expire! There is inflation... If someone put 1 dollar on the bank in 1900, then what would it be worth now, considering both inflation and interest?

If it's sitting in the bank, it isn't subject to inflation, only interest. Depends on the interest rate. With 2% compounded annually, it would be around $11 today. With 5%, around $400.

If you open a bank account today and deposit $1, you'll be in the red next month due to maintenance fees.

Re: What if money expired?

#155

Post by janalsncm »

Geee wrote: post #46

Insanely bad idea. People will always try to store their wealth in inperishable goods. People will get rid of their perishable money and buy property. Which is what happens now already, because of inflation. When property becomes a "money" in a store of value sense, it will become overvalued, and people can't afford houses for living anymore.

I feel like homes should not be taxed, or at least the first $X dollars of your first home should not be.

Re: What if money expired?

#156

Post by janalsncm »

brookst wrote: post #6
rlnorthcutt wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a difference between inflation, which affects the entire monetary system, and money expiration which affects individual units of currency. In the first case, there is no incentive to use the money any faster, and as long as inflation isn't too high, there could be incentives to hoard/save it. In the second case, each unit has an expiration, and like the game of hot potato, you want it out of your hands quick…

I’m not seeing the difference. If I have $1 that’s worth $1 today and $0 in one year, doesn’t it stand to reason that in 6 months I could exchange it for $0.50 with a one year expiration? Taken further, every day I could exchange all of my wealth which now has 364 days left for slightly less wealth with 365 days left. That sure sounds like inflation.

I tend to agree but one difference is that inflation isn’t directly imposed on all goods at the same time. Businesses need to decide to change the price. Currency with a devaluation mechanism makes everything “more expensive” at the same time. This means that while there is general upward pressure on all goods, not all things change price at the same time. I’m not sure which is better, but it’s a difference.

Re: What if money expired?

#157

Post by lisper »

lottin wrote: post #150
lisper wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The whole point of an economy is NOT to encourage people to produce things. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree about that. Maybe things are different where you are, but where I live most people expect to be compensated for their labor, and investors expect at least a shot at a positive ROI. But if you want to work for free, by no means allow me to discourage you. > They don't need to be encouraged to cons…

You said: "Hoarding/saving for long periods of time is bad because it discourages people from taking risks by putting resources to productive use" And later you added that by "saving" you meant specifically "not spending". Then "taking risks by putting resources to productive use" is just a fancy way of saying "producing" So, you're saying that people not spending is bad because it discourages people from producing.…

> the optimal level of production is the level that satisfies the desired level of consumption

You're assuming that "the desired level of consumption" is a constant. It's not. It's a function that depends on circumstances. People discover new things, and some of those discoveries lead to desires that were previously unknown or even unimaginable. It would never even occur to our neolithic ancestors to want an iPhone or a Tesla. But some of our ancestors wanted to discover new things, and some of those discoveries naturally lead to discovering new things to want.

And that's not even mentioning the fact that one of the things that people naturally want is to have children, which leads to more people wanting things. So even if the things they want are the same old things, demand will naturally grow as the population increases.

Re: What if money expired?

#158

Post by the_third_wave »

thriftwy wrote: post #139
CapitalistCartr wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because of compound interest, the total tax will equal original land value in about 70 years, assuming simple interest. But the utility of land is worth far more than 1%.

What is the utility of a piece of a forest somewhere in Brazil? Assuming you do not deforest it.

You do not need to deforest a forest to harvest trees. Assuming an annual growth of X m³ha-¹ you'll be able to harvest X*area by taking only mature trees. If you start out from a clear cut or a forested area grown from a recent clear cut you'll need to stagger the first few harvests (which will produce less wood that projected) to create more diversified age strata but once you have this system going you'll be able to keep on harvesting without breaking the forest cover. The effect of such a management technique is not too different from the way trees naturally age and die, especially not when tree crowns and branches (which used to be of little to no commercial value although this has changed with the increased demand for biomass for heating purposes) are left in the forest to make sure the soil is not depleted.

Re: What if money expired?

#159

Post by mikewarot »

anonporridge wrote: post #97
mikewarot wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Soft money is a contract with the state, hard money doesn't expire. A $1 silver dollar coin from 1901 is worth a heck of a lot more than a $1 bill from the same time.

Hard money can expire, sort of. Hard money is a contract with generalized civilization that only has value so long as civilization continues to organize and complexify our resources. A $1 silver dollar coin still has a lot of objective value because civilization still provides lots of good and useful stuff for us to consume.

If we get to the point where a silver dollar has no value, we're either in a Star Trek where you can make as many as you want, at no cost... or we're past Nate Hagen's "Great Simplification", and worse off than the dark ages... Younger Dryas catastrophe level stuff

Re: What if money expired?

#160

Post by Barrin92 »

Jevon23 wrote: post #34

Complete insanity. Don’t plan for the future. Don’t delay gratification. Never save up enough money that you’re allowed to have a taste of true freedom. Always be precarious, always be dependent on your boss for the next handout, lest your food and shelter be in jeopardy. Don’t step out of line, lest that handout be jeopardized. Keep your hands off my bank account.

Collecting compounding interest on capital isn't planning for the future, it's robbing from the future, that was Gesell's point. Inherent to his notion of perishable money is that what improves the future is work, investment, economic activity, and exchange. Perishable money wouldn't make you more dependent on your boss or a lender but less, because people would be pretty eager to actually hand you money for your work or business idea, rather than accumulating it.

A tax on money costs the people who hold it, and benefits the people who primarily use it as a medium of exchange.

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