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Coding Is Hard

duttakapil.com

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Re: Coding Is Hard

#61

Post by jdefr89 »

strangesmells06 wrote: post #49
airstrike wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think writing bubble sort from scratch without mistakes is necessarily a good demonstration of someone's ability to "handle the basics" Realistically you will never need to write it yourself unless you're coding in some very specific domains It's at most a signal for whether or not they remember algorithms 101 or some leetcode exercise, but knowing that they do remember isn't really useful to me

it's not even the most efficient search. I don't think any sort method in a language would use a bubble.

I agree it isn’t but the point I was trying to make is that when you have to do something from scratch, on your own, even if it’s simple, it can be a challenge. My example was poor because I am typing fast sitting in a car parking lot and I hate typing my thoughts on phones.. Forgive me..

Re: Coding Is Hard

#62

Post by jdefr89 »

patrick451 wrote: post #59
jdefr89 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author says he struggled with concepts that are “easy” or supposed to be. In my experience of coding since 6th grade and having been in the industry for quite some time, it’s difficult to say something is supposed to be “easy” or “hard”. The author doesn’t give many concrete examples so it’s possible he is just assuming certain things should be super easy… A lot of programmers I meet love to claim they don’t stru…

This seems like an uninteresting test. Nobody (almost) is implementing sorting algorithms in their day job. We use libraries. It's like asking people who claim to not struggle with driving basics to change their spark plugs and saying "aha, I new you were an idiot".

Yes but it is basic in the sense that it’s one of the first couple algorithms/data structs mostly everyone has been exposed to. Many knowing what they are and the general principle of how and why they work. That is exactly my point though.. Like what do we consider “basic” exactly? That line becomes blurry in any complex field…

Re: Coding Is Hard

#63

Post by josephg »

There’s a book I can’t recommend highly enough from the 80s(?) written by a tennis coach about teaching tennis. It’s called The Inner Game of Tennis. In it Tim Gallaway, the author says there’s really two games of tennis: the outer game, involving an opponent, a ball, a racquet, scoring, all the rest. And an inner game where the player brings themself to the court and give it their all. The inner game deals with setbacks and losses. He gives a really simple “formula”:

    Performance = potential - how much you get in your own way.
Gallaway says everyone focuses on the outer game. And ignores the inner game. And that inner game is what stops most people from learning tennis.

I’ve been reading The inner game of music lately, which was inspired by the inner game of tennis. There was an exercise in the first chapter - which I did and it made me cry. He said to just sit down at my instrument and play anything, while saying out loud all the inner thoughts. I must have talked for about 20 minutes straight - “I’m worried I’ll look like an idiot. That note didn’t sound good. I’m worried my GF will think I’m bad at piano and unlovable. I’m worried that I’m not very good and I won’t get better than I am now.”. It went on and on. I don’t have a problem with the outer game of learning piano. I’m held back by the inner game. When I play I swear half my brain is devoted to generating, and quashing those thoughts. There can’t be many brain cells are left over for actually playing and listening to the piano!

> And yet, every single day, I have felt frustrated, annoyed with myself and the problem I am trying to solve, mentally exhausted, stupid, dumb, feeling as if my brain is just incapable of grasping these simple concepts, keeping these simple details in mind.

I’ve been programming for 30 years, and by any external measure I’m really good at it. I’ve been doing it since I was 8 or 9 years old. For some reason I don’t doubt myself in programming like I do in music. Do I have setbacks? Every. Single. Day. Finally my point: We might be no different in our actual programming skill. Yesterday I refactored a simple 10 line for() loop. The new code should have been equivalent but it somehow wasn’t, and it took me 2 hours - even knowing where the bug was - to figure out why.

How many of your brain cells are actually devoted to programming, vs generating and quashing all your negative self talk? It’s possible you just need practice, and to go back and watch a Python course for the Nth time. But I suspect your trouble is you’re struggling with the inner game of programming, not the outer game. And you’re only programming with half your brain. Someone once said that the average error rate for a professional programmer is about 1 bug per 10 shipped lines of code. For every 10 lines of code written by professionals, we maybe write 3 bugs and only find 2 of them. If every one of those bugs is evidence that you’re an idiot, programming will crush you.

But the thing to learn isn’t how to make programming “smooth”. If you do it right, it will never be smooth. You aren’t making 1 million pizzas. Every program is new and different (else you should just reuse your old code). The thing to learn is how to stop abusing yourself like this when you struggle. As you said, Programming is hard. But you’re doing fine.

And read the inner game if you have a chance. If I’m right, that’s where the work is. Not in some Python fundamentals course you’ve already seen 8 other times.

Re: Coding Is Hard

#64

Post by Jensson »

airstrike wrote: post #44
jdefr89 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author says he struggled with concepts that are “easy” or supposed to be. In my experience of coding since 6th grade and having been in the industry for quite some time, it’s difficult to say something is supposed to be “easy” or “hard”. The author doesn’t give many concrete examples so it’s possible he is just assuming certain things should be super easy… A lot of programmers I meet love to claim they don’t stru…

I don't think writing bubble sort from scratch without mistakes is necessarily a good demonstration of someone's ability to "handle the basics" Realistically you will never need to write it yourself unless you're coding in some very specific domains It's at most a signal for whether or not they remember algorithms 101 or some leetcode exercise, but knowing that they do remember isn't really useful to me

> It's at most a signal for whether or not they remember algorithms 101 or some leetcode exercise, but knowing that they do remember isn't really useful to me

For bubble sort? Do you really think anyone should have to remember an algorithm to write a quadratic time sort? All you have to do is "compare and swap" and loop through until you are done, this is way easier than Fizzbuzz.

This is only hard if you have a hard time grasping loops, conditional comparisons or swaps. But if you understand all of those the sort writes itself. And understanding loops, comparisons and swaps is pretty fundamental to anything you do as a software engineer, so I'm not sure how any competent software engineer could struggle with it.

Re: Coding Is Hard

#65

Post by josephg »

patrick451 wrote: post #59
jdefr89 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author says he struggled with concepts that are “easy” or supposed to be. In my experience of coding since 6th grade and having been in the industry for quite some time, it’s difficult to say something is supposed to be “easy” or “hard”. The author doesn’t give many concrete examples so it’s possible he is just assuming certain things should be super easy… A lot of programmers I meet love to claim they don’t stru…

This seems like an uninteresting test. Nobody (almost) is implementing sorting algorithms in their day job. We use libraries. It's like asking people who claim to not struggle with driving basics to change their spark plugs and saying "aha, I new you were an idiot".

It seems pretty indicative to me. Bubble sort is a simple idea that I understand conceptually but haven’t written the code for yet. That summarises most of my job. And yet, 30 years in, I still make stupid mistakes all the time.

I think the difference between professional engineers and person writing the blog isn’t necessarily skill. I think it’s how we react when we make mistakes. Maybe the real test of a programmer is watching how calmly they can write their buggy bubble sort, then test it and fix the bugs. Bugs happen. How we roll with the punches is what makes some people great.

Re: Coding Is Hard

#66

Post by lytefm »

swatcoder wrote: post #46

Coding is hard exactly the way painting is hard or sculpting is hard or playing guitar is hard or writing is hard. It is but it's not. You need to put real effort in to learn, some less if you're naturally inclined to it, and many reach a point where they crest ahill and it really isn't that hard at all anymore. If you're chasing after it as a career and coding feels persistently hard and unnatural, you might be aimi…

I have the impression that some people can be software developers for 10 years or longer but they still don't "get it" while some junior devs are really great right from the start.

These Seniors might be good at duct taping, overengineering or have a "my way or the highway" mindset but aren't capable of finding and implementing a good solution given the constraints.

It probably boils down to factors like intelligence, creative problem solving, ability to focus, reading skills, knowledge retention and a healthy dose of humility.

I guess everyone can (and probably should) learn basic coding skills, but it doesn't mean everyone can become a great software engineer.

Re: Coding Is Hard

#67

Post by MattPalmer1086 »

coldblues wrote: post #57

I definitely relate with the author a lot. I have ADHD and getting in the flow of programming feels like a monumental task that makes me feel extremely dumb. I think the issue is that there are too many low-quality programming resources, and the author should have asked for help. You won't have a personal mentor for free, but there are dozens of people in support channels to help you learn, all you have to do is ask.…

It's interesting you say that math is blindly following steps. I have the opposite experience, that math is an exploration of concepts and how they relate to each other - much like programming!

Blindly following steps, whether in math, programming or anything else, does indeed sound unrewarding.

Re: Coding Is Hard

#68

Post by [deleted] »

Jensson wrote: post #64
airstrike wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think writing bubble sort from scratch without mistakes is necessarily a good demonstration of someone's ability to "handle the basics" Realistically you will never need to write it yourself unless you're coding in some very specific domains It's at most a signal for whether or not they remember algorithms 101 or some leetcode exercise, but knowing that they do remember isn't really useful to me

> It's at most a signal for whether or not they remember algorithms 101 or some leetcode exercise, but knowing that they do remember isn't really useful to me For bubble sort? Do you really think anyone should have to remember an algorithm to write a quadratic time sort? All you have to do is "compare and swap" and loop through until you are done, this is way easier than Fizzbuzz. This is only hard if you have a hard…

[deleted]

Re: Coding Is Hard

#69

Post by swatcoder »

lytefm wrote: post #66
swatcoder wrote: post #46

Coding is hard exactly the way painting is hard or sculpting is hard or playing guitar is hard or writing is hard. It is but it's not. You need to put real effort in to learn, some less if you're naturally inclined to it, and many reach a point where they crest ahill and it really isn't that hard at all anymore. If you're chasing after it as a career and coding feels persistently hard and unnatural, you might be aimi…

I have the impression that some people can be software developers for 10 years or longer but they still don't "get it" while some junior devs are really great right from the start. These Seniors might be good at duct taping, overengineering or have a "my way or the highway" mindset but aren't capable of finding and implementing a good solution given the constraints. It probably boils down to factors like intelligence…

Absolutely. Some people just find learning itself hard too. It's a whole other skill that's orthogonal and similarly trainable. To keep making progress at making more things feel easy, you need to remain curious and ambitious. Many don't internalize that and just plateau when pressure lets up enough.

Re: Coding Is Hard

#70

Post by rainonmoon »

dehrmann wrote: post #7

> That's when I decided that I didn't need to go to college. I could just teach myself, for free, through all these online resources. > I went through all the tracks, from basic HTML (again) to JavaScript and even Ruby amd Python. And I was super proud of myself for doing just that. I then started this 2-day python crash course... > It's been 10 years since I first started learning how to code. And I still struggle w…

Yeah, I don't think this guy's problem is that coding is hard, I think he finds learning hard. At this point I think a better understanding of pedagogy would help advance his coding more than anything.
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