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280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

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Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#701

Post by JAlexoid »

hot_gril wrote: post #574
JAlexoid wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NYC is one of the safest places in the US... and even with fairly poor mass transit system - it's still is incredibly good by American standards. I moved from NYC an hour north, to be more isolated than the "impersonal big cities". I barely know any of my neighbors - because there are no sidewalks and everyone is forced to drive for anything. Car dependence kills people, kills communities and reduces your QoL.

NYC mass transit is poor? I've never lived there, but during my extended visits, it seemed like I could get anywhere in a reasonable amount of time.

Relative to less dense global cities - yes, it's poor.

In American terms - it's probably one of the better ones.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#702

Post by Enginerrrd »

camgunz wrote: post #687
Enginerrrd wrote: post #637

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also I'd just like to add: everyone forgets that not everyone lives near an urban center. It'd be fine to get rid of 90-95% of the internal combustion cars/trucks and then move on to the next biggest target. We don't need to jump to 100% on everything.

This is harder than you'd think. There are something like 282 million cars in the US. Let's say we want to replace half of them with a zero emissions EV, so 140m, and those cost $25k. That's $3.5 trillion we're gonna burn, plus idk, dealing with 140m waste ICE cars. This is not a problem we're gonna solve with EVs any time soon.

Oh I understand the difficulties, I have designed a bunch of charge stations. (Civil Engineer) Most of the grid infrastructure I know of in my area is near capacity too and can't really accommodate new hookups.

My point is just that I see a lot of 100% goals and I'd really like to shift the narrative to 90-95%.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#703

Post by pharmakom »

camgunz wrote: post #83

I've said it before and I'll say it again: building the future around cars of any kind is completely unsustainable. We cannot reproduce the rates of rich world car ownership in the developing world without mass catastrophe (raw materials/labor needed for construction and maintenance, raw materials/labor/space needed for roads and parking lots, literal tons of waste--batteries, tires, steel, plastic, foam--, energy ne…

It doesn’t work in the developed world either. We all hate pollution, sitting in traffic, lack of green space, obesity, lack of childhood autonomy … and yet society seems incapable of coordinating on solving it.

Well, except for the Netherlands.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#704

Post by muxator »

jonasdegendt wrote: post #573
stefs wrote: post #525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i've never been in rome but i visited trieste - a very walkable city - a few weeks ago and i was shocked how cars were clogging up everything there. not necessarily cars driving, but parked cars. maybe trieste is a bit special because big parts of it are on a steep hill so it's not that well suited for cycling but none the less, i was very disappointed. not a pleasure with kids. i asked an italian friend about it and…

I’ve been to a good amount of Italian cities and would agree it’s the same mess of cars all over the place, like anywhere else. I also went to Rome for the first time half a year ago and it wasn’t the mess of cars and Vespas I imagined it was going to be, so hey, perhaps Rome is the anomaly.

The turistic center has big pedonal areas.

However, the rest of the city is as full of cars as it may get.

I have to say, it mostly remains walkable. It just would be so much nicer with more efficient public transportation and less private cars.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#705

Post by bigfudge »

ChrisKnott wrote: post #103
bigfudge wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's actually just anglo countries. The UK is batshit about cars as well, and I don't think the Aussies are much better.

By what metric? The UK doesn't stand out in this list - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_vehicle... - it's below most of its peer nations.

We are tiny though, mostly high density and had a great rail inhertence. Given where we could be, I think we are car obsessed. Note also that car use and the right to use residential streets as commuter rat runs is becoming bound up with stupid culture war politics.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#706

Post by vikramkr »

rootusrootus wrote: post #545
camgunz wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well that's the point I think. In practically all of the US you can't even take a sidewalk where you want to go. It gets even worse if you want things like walk signals or to avoid huge intersections, or even mass transit at all.

"Practically all of the US" includes nowhere I've lived, and I've moved around a fair amount. Some places are worse than others, but sidewalks are very much a thing more often than not.

Practically all of the US includes almost everywhere I have lived except for major cities. Especially in the Midwest and ESPECIALLY in the South walking to get groceries is a death wish.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#707

Post by slothtrop »

JAlexoid wrote: post #436
slothtrop wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trivially resolved through zoning reform. Rhetoric surrounding "banning cars" will not deter sprawl or achieve anything of note, it will just be considered fringe fanaticism. > unsustainable The global population growth rate is going to stall, and by extension, cities will cease to grow. Sustainability is a moot point.

> Rhetoric surrounding "banning cars" Which I never engaged in. Banning cars is nonsense and is counter productive. > The global population growth rate is going to stall If we give every person a car to drive every day, today - that's enough to make it unsustainable. That's the whole point. We don't even have to have any growth in population.

> If we give every person a car to drive every day, today - that's enough to make it unsustainable.

Leaving aside that we aren't, sustainability necessarily implies perpetual increase. This hypothetical doesn't make sense. If the demand were there to supply everyone with a vehicle, we would, the materials are there. That would of course result in environmental encroachment, but not indefinitely. Plus vehicles on the road will all be EV in the coming decades.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#708

Post by david-gpu »

concordDance wrote: post #620
david-gpu wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somehow most developed countries around the world have figured out how to design cities around walking, public transit and cycling, but it's an insurmountable problem in the US? It's not magic, folks, just look at how it is done elsewhere. Yes, that includes places with "real winters".

Uh, I live in the UK. Public transport is only good when compared to cars in 5mph traffic in roads not designed for that many cars. Say I live in Benson and want to get to the Oxford Science Park for work. Do I go for a walk and two busses at 1 hour or do I drive for 12 minutes?

The majority of people do not choose to live in one town and commute to work to a different one that doesn't have a good transit connection with the first.

The solution sure isn't providing even more infrastructure to the method of transport that is least efficient (passengers/hr, ongoing cost, space wasted for parking), most polluting (particulate, noise) and most dangerous to others (injuries per Km travelled).

People constantly defend cars based on how convenient it is for the person driving them without taking into consideration how their choice affects everybody outside their car. This method of transport is unique in the magnitude of its externalities compared to the alternatives.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#709

Post by Reason077 »

rglullis wrote: post #697
Reason077 wrote: post #550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ”Cars our LOUD. Even electric cars unfortunately” While it might be true that there isn’t a huge difference at highway speeds, EVs can make a massive difference to noise levels on city streets! When cars are crawling along in city traffic, engine noise dominates. As electric vehicles have started to become dominant on central London streets, this has been really noticeable. Sometimes I’ll see queues of cars waiting…

Electric cars are loud as well. Most of the car noise is due to tire friction. Start at 11m10s mark on https://youtu.be/CTV-wwszGw8

Not at city speeds they’re not. City streets with EVs are much, much quieter than ones filled with roaring combustion engines. There’s a reason why regulations require EVs to have noise emitters when moving at low speeds (but they’re still much quieter than combustion cars!)

Not to mention the benefits of cleaner air, and far less waste heat being emitted.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#710

Post by frognumber »

david-gpu wrote: post #293
frognumber wrote: post #78

Death and pain. That's what e-bikes and mopeds bring to my city. The infrastructures is designed for pedestrians, cars, and mass transit. Bicycles are being retrofitted. It's completely NOT designed for dozens of oddball vehicles which are coming up. The people riding them aren't as competent as cyclists (which isn't a very high bar) and cause unsafe situations all the time. That's my city. Yours might be different.…

> Death and pain. That's what e-bikes and mopeds bring to my city. Could you kindly share how many people have died at the hands of these dangerous e-bikes and mopeds? And how many have died due to crashes with cars? In my city cars drivers kill and injure people disproportionately, according to the official stats that are published every year [0]. [0] https://www.york.ca/media/76976/download

The statistic you cite show exactly what one would expect: Bicycles are less safe than cars. Mopeds and e-bikes are mixed in with bicycles, so it's impossible to tell how safe or unsafe those are. It's important to look at the statistics per trip or per mile traveled, rather than absolute numbers.

Cars are around 20 injury/total collisions per 10,000,000 trips. Bicycles (which includes mopeds and e-bikes) are about 10x that, at around 15 injury collisions per 1,000,000 trips.

My city doesn't release similar statistics, but I suspect they'd be worse. Does your city enforce traffic rules for e-bikes? Mine doesn't. They run red lights and are a menace. At the same time, they don't take the same skill as riding a bicycle, so there are many idiots out there. I would guess they're about 10x less safe than bicycles in turn (here).

As a footnote, your trucks are crazy scary. Do you know why? They outnumber all other vehicles _in absolute numbers_ for collisions, despite being a tiny portion of the trips.

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