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New York may ban noncompete employment agreements and Wall Street is not happy

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81–90 of 407 posts

Re: New York may ban noncompete employment agreements and Wall Street is not happy

#81
post #29
post #9

After noncompetes, they should go after non-solicitation. Entire teams that work well together should be able to defect from shitty employers. It kind of happens anyway but on the quiet, inefficiently - I'd love to see a job website where you can list an entire team.

Non-solicits also include not soliciting customers. Which is particularly relevant at consultancies where the product is a service. If you join a consultancy group, and 2 months later quit with the client roster... is it really OK to poach all their clients to start your own consultancy? All of these contracts are time limited, FWIW. E.g. non-solicitation doesn't mean you can never work your your colleagues again. It…

> All of these contracts are time limited, FWIW. E.g. non-solicitation doesn't mean you can never work your your colleagues again. It protects against someone leaving and then immediately poaching all employees within 12 months. After 12 months you're welcome to poach as much as you'd like.

For me that doesn't change anything. You should be allowed to tell your customer to come with you to a new business, the next day.

Companies know perfectly well that most of that value of the relationship is gone if you have to wait a year, so they pretend that time limiting is somehow reasonable.

The free market actually needs to be free.

Re: New York may ban noncompete employment agreements and Wall Street is not happy

#82
post #57
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you join a consultancy group, and 2 months later quit with the client roster... is it really OK to poach all their clients to start your own consultancy? Yes. It's called free market competition and it's great for the society and economy. NYC bankers should be first in line to understand that.

What you’re advocating for is normalizing the stealing of company IP. The way you solicit clients from a prior company is downloading the client list, exporting to a personal drive, quitting, then using the list to poach. I’m fine if that’s your intention, but let your employer know upfront that you won’t protect confidential company data.

You are thinking about stealing the rolodex. That would be probably theft. But personal relations and reputation is NOT company IP.

If you steal the rolodex, it's questionable for sure.

If you leverage your network and reputation, that's something that free market should never limit.

Re: New York may ban noncompete employment agreements and Wall Street is not happy

#83
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should I believe you? You don't offer an argument. It is entirely plausible that one could be faced with a situation of losing one's home, health insurance, ability to exist in modern life, and, oh, one's actual life due to unemployment. I know this because it happens. Non-competes, by definition, make this problem worse by reducing the number of jobs available to a person. What's your justification?

I’m not going to debate or justify non-competes. I’m also not advocating for them. All I’m doing is calling you out that when you join a company, you’re voluntarily signing all of the contracts. It’s not some kind of involuntary act of slavery. A responsible adult is presented a contract and chooses to sign it. That’s the opposite of involuntary. Your argument is it’s involuntary. That’s what we were debating. I wasn…

This is too simplified a position:

1. A company can usually go without hiring people than a worker can go without making mortgage payments or issuing rent. In the United States, that includes basic access to medical care.

2. Companies have large legal departments advising them on how to craft language and the boundaries of the law. Most workers don’t even want to pay a lawyer to review a contract knowing that they’ll almost always be told it’s standard and there are no exceptions.

3. People join a company when the relationship is good, and aren’t thinking about how it could be sour. This often includes verbal assurances about things like this which are not written into contracts, and a change in management which provides reason to leave also invalidates all of your assumption about who you entered into the agreement with. If you signed with “only a direct competitor” that probably seemed more reasonable at the time than when the new boss / acquiring company decides that since you work on software anyone else who works on software is a competitor. A lot of open source developers went through this with IP grabs which were agreed to cover only their new employer’s direct business but then a change in ownership meant that someone was trying to claim their hobby game or even non-software IP.

Yes, ideally everyone would know about this and refuse to deal with abusive companies but the reason we have laws is because that’s not how the works has ever worked. Providing clear boundaries is useful both because because society is healthier if even people who make minor mistakes or trust the wrong person are protected and because it levels the field for everyone. If the law says no non-competes, people don’t need to generate millions in revenue for lawyers telling them why company A is offering less than company B, and company C is not going to try to bully their existing employees into accepting a worse deal. It’s the same reason we say “your boss can’t demand sex” / “teachers can’t have sex with students” because that avoids having to individually litigate each case to decide whether some power gradient was crossed. Simple boundaries are enormously useful, and in this case there’s really no downside (New York would love it if banning non-competes devastated their economy into California’s).

Re: New York may ban noncompete employment agreements and Wall Street is not happy

#84
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. What I'm saying is "take a job with a non-compete or starve" is not a situation in which a worker can make a voluntary choice, "enforceable in court" be damned. Not to mention, such agreements are often not stated up front as part of the job description.

I hear what you’re saying, but it’s hyperbole. I think there’s zero percent of you starving over your unwillingness to sign a non-compete. Pretending like the situation is that extreme isn’t helping anyone.

In the USA fast food companies are requiring non competes for burger flippers.

Re: New York may ban noncompete employment agreements and Wall Street is not happy

#85
post #57
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you join a consultancy group, and 2 months later quit with the client roster... is it really OK to poach all their clients to start your own consultancy? Yes. It's called free market competition and it's great for the society and economy. NYC bankers should be first in line to understand that.

What you’re advocating for is normalizing the stealing of company IP. The way you solicit clients from a prior company is downloading the client list, exporting to a personal drive, quitting, then using the list to poach. I’m fine if that’s your intention, but let your employer know upfront that you won’t protect confidential company data.

IP protection is an entirely separate thing and has a huge body of case law around it already. Non compete and non solicitation do not allow employees to take IP with them, as evidenced by the many cases against tech employees who tried to do that.

And no, taking a client list with you is not how this works in consulting. You take the client you currently work for and have a relationship with and offer them a better deal to work with you independently. After that you’re on your own to solicit and win new clients.

Re: New York may ban noncompete employment agreements and Wall Street is not happy

#86
post #57
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you join a consultancy group, and 2 months later quit with the client roster... is it really OK to poach all their clients to start your own consultancy? Yes. It's called free market competition and it's great for the society and economy. NYC bankers should be first in line to understand that.

What you’re advocating for is normalizing the stealing of company IP. The way you solicit clients from a prior company is downloading the client list, exporting to a personal drive, quitting, then using the list to poach. I’m fine if that’s your intention, but let your employer know upfront that you won’t protect confidential company data.

This is an invented crime, meant to protect the incumbents.

If I'm a waiter in a restaurant there should be nothing to stop me telling the customers that I'm going to a better restaurant and they should come and try it. Will the boss be annoyed? Yes. Should he be allowed to stop me? No.

In the real world there is no salesman who thinks of the clients as belonging to the company. They all know that sales relationships are personal. The contracts may say one thing, but the reality is different. The law ought to be to allow free association. Customers lose out when they are not offered better deals.

Re: New York may ban noncompete employment agreements and Wall Street is not happy

#87
post #34
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Non-solicits also include not soliciting customers. Which is particularly relevant at consultancies where the product is a service. If you join a consultancy group, and 2 months later quit with the client roster... is it really OK to poach all their clients to start your own consultancy? All of these contracts are time limited, FWIW. E.g. non-solicitation doesn't mean you can never work your your colleagues again. It…

> If you join a consultancy group, and 2 months later quit with the client roster... is it really OK to poach all their clients to start your own consultancy? Yes. It's called free market competition and it's great for the society and economy. NYC bankers should be first in line to understand that.

No one is more afraid of the free market and competition than the biggest capitalists. They are always trying to pull up the ladders behind them that helped them get where they are.

Re: New York may ban noncompete employment agreements and Wall Street is not happy

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like the solution is to force the company to pay full TC (average of previous years + inflation or something?) for the duration of the noncompete.

> I feel like the solution is to force the company to pay full TC (average of previous years + inflation or something?) for the duration of the noncompete. It absolutely has to be something like this at a bare minimum. The whole "We pay full base" argument is nonsense when the TC is multiples of base.

But bonus depends on how the team did plus individual perf... politics.

How do you establish what the person would have gotten paid?

Re: New York may ban noncompete employment agreements and Wall Street is not happy

#89
post #68
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

General strategies of trading on financial markets. Entirely different than working at Google.

And what benefit does the economy and society get by allowing monopolization of these strategies by a single company at the expense of basic right for workers to switch jobs to the ones that pay them the most? It sounds so profoundly anti-capitalist - if the knowledge of certain strategy is so important, the employee should be retained by paying them more and giving them better perks instead of enforced labor contrac…

This is exactly the right question. If quant firms make the world a better place by tightening spreads - a common justification - then wouldn't we get an even better place if everyone knew about these strategies?

Re: New York may ban noncompete employment agreements and Wall Street is not happy

#90

Quant firms at least are one of the few places where noncompetes can make sense. It's an extremely IP sensitive industry with stupendously high pay where the employee is going to someone probably competing very directly with you, for the same/similar opportunities. Actual code + NDAs banning literal reimplementations of stuff aren't that valuable, the knowledge and ideas will stay in the head of the employees. The tw…

> Quant firms at least are one of the few places where noncompetes can make sense. It's an extremely IP sensitive industry with stupendously high pay where the employee is going to someone probably competing very directly with you, for the same/similar opportunities. So the solution is that employees should only be able to work for one employer in their career? I wouldn't disagree with this argument if the noncompete…

> So the solution is that employees should only be able to work for one employer in their career?

What makes you suggest that? If I understand correctly after you leave one of the quant firms you end up having to spend X months not working in the industry getting base pay. Which seems like a very reasonable deal.

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