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280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

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Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#511

Post by FredPret »

bluGill wrote: post #485
FredPret wrote: post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You ever been on a bus with a raving lunatic? Wiled away the hours as the bus chugs along circuitously to a point that is not quite at your destination? Tried to carry heavy shopping on a bus? Walked to a bus stop through bad weather? Taken one mode of transport that was delayed, making you miss the next leg? Waited forever for a bus that never comes? Public transport sucks balls. In the world's densest, biggest citi…

None of those problems you name are inherent in a bus though. Those are common problems with buses, but they don't have to be. A bus should not "chugs along circuitously to a point that is not quite at your destination" - design a better network. A bus should stop so close to where you shop that it is easier than carting that stuff to your car. A bus stop should not be so far away that bad weather is a problem. You s…

These problems are inherent in buses.

Buses will always be open to the entire public. If "the public" includes raving lunatics, then they will find their way onto the buses.

To build a better network, you need to either throw a vast amount of money at it, or have a super-dense city. The public transit in London & NYC is merely OK. In other cities, it will always be prohibitively expensive.

And to say that "the bus should always come" is not exactly an argument in favour of transit. We all know the damn bus should come. But sometimes, it just doesn't.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#512

Post by patagonia »

camgunz wrote: post #83

I've said it before and I'll say it again: building the future around cars of any kind is completely unsustainable. We cannot reproduce the rates of rich world car ownership in the developing world without mass catastrophe (raw materials/labor needed for construction and maintenance, raw materials/labor/space needed for roads and parking lots, literal tons of waste--batteries, tires, steel, plastic, foam--, energy ne…

To be completely explicit, you're telling anyone with any need or desire to pull a trailer or go off publicly planned and constructed roadways that their needs or desires are not even on the table for discussion. I don't believe it is in fact necessary to eliminate cars as a primary mode of transportation in the future in order to meet climate goals. But, even if it was, the argument just will not fly with many many many people. I could easily counter with the argument that we should keep cars but eliminate all air and boat transportation (and recreation) and eliminate the future production of computers. The path forward will not look like either of these proposals.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#513

Post by jordanbeiber »

joe_the_user wrote: post #477
jordanbeiber wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bike will get stolen anyway which is really annoying no matter the insurance. Not saying bike isn’t preferred to car, it’s just something I always consider. I’ve got a bike AND a car, I still take the car on certain trips where the bike would make more sense logistically because it feels like 50/50 it’ll get stolen.

Some people "feel" like the chance of an accident driving a car is very high even when it isn't. If you "feel" like theft is very likely when it isn't, that is your problem. And I've had several bike stolen over the years (include being mugged with my bike) and it's taught me to take appropriate precautions to the point I feel fairly safe.

> And I've had several bike stolen over the years (include being mugged with my bike)

So, let me get this straight - it’s quite likely a bike gets stolen and this experience, as shared with me, has led you to take precautions.

My precaution being not taking the bike some times and to some places.

How many times have you have a car stolen over that same time period?

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#514

Post by NovemberWhiskey »

KennyBlanken wrote: post #492
NovemberWhiskey wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 7 line extension cost over $3 billion dollars in 2023 terms to build 1.5 miles of track from Times Sq to Hudson Yards and build one new station there. I defy anyone to conclude this represented good value.

The NYC transit system costs $20BN/year to operate, serves a population of almost 9M people and pre pandemic had nearly 10 million passenger trips a day; currently 5M. Montana spends $1BN/year on roadways and receives another $3BN/year in federal funding and serves a population of 1M people. The NYC subways system moves five times the population of Montana every day and costs half as much per capita. Do go on about h…

Subways are not a waste of money: throwing money at the NYC subway system under the current set of parameters is a waste of money.

P.S. you're also comparing apples and oranges; you're only looking at the MTA operating budget; not the operating + capital budget which the Montana numbers represent.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#515

Post by jordanbeiber »

jdironman wrote: post #447
jordanbeiber wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can emphasize “feels”, but if you’ve ever parked a moderately expensive bike in a dense city center for a few hours you know the feeling. Especially if you’ve had a few stolen. If not the bike, the saddle. If not the saddle a wheel. If not the wheel the battery. Etc etc. It’s all really annoying trying to get home not matter the insurance. I had two strollers stolen from my backyard while at home last year… it’s ki…

Sounds like a secure storage infrastructure problem.

In a way it is (and also a humanity problem).

It would be great if a bunch of car parkings could be converted to secure bike storage spots.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#516

Post by didntcheck »

slothtrop wrote: post #412

This has turned in to a r/fuckcars thread. Zoning reform is the cure, if we want 15 min cities. The market will do the work, if you let it. Plus, many problems are just housing problems in disguise (including homelessness). Rhetoric I see here about banning cars is both redundant and ridiculous. If people have more convenient options, they won't use cars anyway. If you deign to "ban" cars without a replacement people…

Yeah, this is what annoys me with a lot of the fanatics. If your carrot is apparently so good, then why do you need the stick? Almost nobody has a problem with building walkable neighborhoods and "15 minute cities", what they have a problem with is the direct attempts to just make driving worse rather than making the alternatives better. Frustrating cars is a goal loudly and proudly declared (hence the name of that sub), then suddenly turned round and called a "conspiracy theory" when someone dares to say they don't like it. That phrase seems to have made a comeback to be the thought-terminating cliché and shunning-smear of the 2020s thus far

The whole attitude is just completely elitist, thinking that they know what people want better than they do themselves, and calling them all manner of names for being impertinent enough to hold an opinion of one's own rather than yielding to their betters

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#517

Post by FredPret »

david-gpu wrote: post #479
FredPret wrote: post #440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think cars are a disaster, and that Toronto is somehow more car-centric than "most of the developed world", I think you should hop on the next bus to Pearson and go see some of the developed and undeveloped world. I've lived on three continents, and Toronto is the safest, cleanest city I've ever been in. You could totally make living there without a car work (if not comfortably). There are like 2-3 cities on t…

I have lived in three countries as well, and Toronto is neither the safest or cleanest city where I have been. So much for personal anecdotes, then. You yourself admit that once you bought a car in Toronto "Life became 10x easier" , so which way is it? As for living there without a car, that's all I've ever done, so I'm quite familiar with the pros and cons. As I said earlier, I have no doubt that it would be conveni…

- The point of my anecdote is that Toronto is a wonderful place to live, with and without a car, and you're capable of describing cars in Toronto as a "disaster" you need a sense of proportion.

- Life without a car in Toronto is tolerable if you live downtown because it's a big, kind-of-dense city. Buying a car makes it much better.

- Cars unlock a huge amount of economic activity - employees and customers can now reach many more businesses, and haul more stuff back and forth, much faster than walking/cycling/bussing. More people, more stuff, more quickly = bigger economy. This truth of this is obvious and is independent of how US municipalities fund their highway maintenance, whether people live in suburbs or not, or your personal opinion.

Buy a car. I promise you'll love it.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#518

Post by didntcheck »

dublinben wrote: post #216
julienreszka wrote: post #102

Have you seen the picture with the 2 children plus one adult on one bike? Make me really uncomfortable I immediately imagine how they risk to be crushed by a truck.

Sounds like we should get rid of trucks then.

Be the change you want to see then. Logistics demand comes from the consumer

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#519

Post by Gud »

patagonia wrote: post #512
camgunz wrote: post #83

I've said it before and I'll say it again: building the future around cars of any kind is completely unsustainable. We cannot reproduce the rates of rich world car ownership in the developing world without mass catastrophe (raw materials/labor needed for construction and maintenance, raw materials/labor/space needed for roads and parking lots, literal tons of waste--batteries, tires, steel, plastic, foam--, energy ne…

To be completely explicit, you're telling anyone with any need or desire to pull a trailer or go off publicly planned and constructed roadways that their needs or desires are not even on the table for discussion. I don't believe it is in fact necessary to eliminate cars as a primary mode of transportation in the future in order to meet climate goals. But, even if it was, the argument just will not fly with many many…

You don’t need to own a car to do this.

The simple fact is, public transport in most places sucks.

I’ve moved to Zürich, and there is no way I’ll drive a car willingly again. Taking the tram everywhere is extremely liberating.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#520

Post by CalRobert »

camgunz wrote: post #83

I've said it before and I'll say it again: building the future around cars of any kind is completely unsustainable. We cannot reproduce the rates of rich world car ownership in the developing world without mass catastrophe (raw materials/labor needed for construction and maintenance, raw materials/labor/space needed for roads and parking lots, literal tons of waste--batteries, tires, steel, plastic, foam--, energy ne…

I think the hardest thing to get across is that _LIFE IS BETTER_ this way. Having 2,000 kgs of metal hurtling by at 80 kph half a meter from your six your old's head while you walk to school SUCKS. It's horrible. But hopping with my 4 year old in the cargo bike and my 6 year old on her own bike is sheer, utter, bliss. Little kids ringing their bells and chatting with new friends on the way to school is a joy that I feel privileged to be able to experience with them.

And when you don't surround every building with 3 acres of parking, everything is closer together. It's so much closer together that, for the most part, you don't even need to drive for much.

I didn't even _want_ to move to the Netherlands. I wanted to live somewhere I could be car-free and feel safe with my kids biking to school. It's ludicrous that cars have utterly conquered the entire damn planet, and all humans have is a desperate rearguard action in a tiny country largely below sea level. And even here, there's more cars than I'd like.

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