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Putting the "J" in the RPG, Part 1: Dorakue

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Re: Putting the "J" in the RPG, Part 1: Dorakue

#41
post #3

I still feel Final Fantasy 6 was the best JRPG of the retro era. At the time it had heavy themes you wouldn’t expect a child to grapple with: the ideas that the good guys can just straight up lose and having to live with the consequences, characters whose arcs may never truly be redeemed (because they can fucking die ), and even complex issues like the passing of loved ones, committing suicide when all hope is lost,…

Celes is tortured, not raped (and its a shame they edited this in subsequent releases to be honest. The empire in the first half of the game loses alot of teeth in these "minor" edits).

I have played through FFVI more than a dozen times, including currently, right now, on my phone, I'm half way through yet another run, and I can't think of anything that invokes rape.

I'm also not really sure where gambling addiction comes in. Yes, Setzer ran a flying gambling airship, but its never really explored in any meaningful way.

This isn't meant to chastise so much as to set expectations aligned with the game.

The rest is true though. It does deal with passing of loved ones, attempted suicide, interspecies relationships (espers, Maduin / Madeline specifically), emotionless killers (Shadow AKA Realms dad, the entire personality of Kefka), abandonment, being able to love after trauma (The Terra story arc), fascism, prejudice (how the Magi are treated), genocide / mass murder for political gain (how the espers are treated), the dark side of technology, free will, the meaning of life, toxic masculinity (Edgar and women...oh boy I see it alot different now) and most importantly, never giving up no matter how hard things are or hopeless they seem.

Honestly, all of that stuff is there, and presented in what is (mostly) a pre-teen / early teen friendly way. If used appropriately, could be a spring board to discuss heavier things in life.

Re: Putting the "J" in the RPG, Part 1: Dorakue

#42
post #3

I still feel Final Fantasy 6 was the best JRPG of the retro era. At the time it had heavy themes you wouldn’t expect a child to grapple with: the ideas that the good guys can just straight up lose and having to live with the consequences, characters whose arcs may never truly be redeemed (because they can fucking die ), and even complex issues like the passing of loved ones, committing suicide when all hope is lost,…

Your mentioning of "rape" here sent me on a google journey... I don't remember anything like that happening or even being hinted at in FF6, what are you referring to?

I don’t recall anything like that in FF6 either. They even removed part of a scene in a rerelease where Celes is chained up and gets punched by a guard.

There are still plenty of other horrifying things in FF6 though.

Re: Putting the "J" in the RPG, Part 1: Dorakue

#43
>To be sure, there were Americans who found all of the barriers to entry into these deeply foreign worlds to be more bracing than intimidating, who took on the challenge of meeting the games on their own terms, often emerging with a lifelong passion for all things Japanese. At this stage, though, they were the distinct minority. In Japan and the United States alike, the conventional wisdom through the mid-1990s was that JRPGs didn’t and couldn’t sell well overseas; this was regarded as a fact of life as fundamental as the vagaries of climate. (Thanks to this belief, none of the Final Fantasy games to date had been released in Europe at all.) It would take Final Fantasy VII and a dramatic, controversial switch of platforms on the part of Square to change that. But once those things happened… look out. The JRPG would conquer the world yet.

That, and a weird indie project Nintendo had published focused around multiplayer battling and trading called... Pocket Monsters. You may know it as Pokemon.

Pokemon itself was co-developed by two different companies: Game Freak (an indie videogame 'zine turned game developer) and Creatures, a company created from the smoldering ashes of APE, Shigesato Itoi's game development firm that had made a little game called EarthBound. EarthBound was lovingly[0] translated by Nintendo, because it had already taken Japan by storm, it was very well written, and most notably, it was hilariously American[1].

Unfortunately it sold horribly, because Nintendo had made some pretty terrible marketing decisions. First off, the tagline for the game in the US was "This game stinks", because someone at Nintendo wanted to ride the wave of early 90s Nickelodeon gross-out cartoons. EarthBound is not at all like Ren and Stimpy[2]. Second, Nintendo decided to sell the game alongside a strategy guide, which while cool, increased the cost of the game. To make matters even worse, this wasn't even the first time Nintendo had considered doing this. EarthBound is actually a sequel to a game on the NES that Nintendo had fully translated, and then cancelled at the last minute due to worries about production cost. Why? The NES version of EarthBound[3] would have also shipped with a strategy guide, because Nintendo was hellbent on patronizing American players.

Possibly because of this, Nintendo held back on releasing Pokemon for like three years. It didn't even sell well in Japan initially, but some rumors about unobtainable Pokemon that you could glitch the game to get[4] and an animated cartoon based on the game helped it out. The cartoon got licensed to 4Kids in America before the games even got released here, and it did wonders to sell people on the game[5]. What really helped is that the cartoon would actually teach you some of the more obtuse mechanics of Pokemon. No need to give someone the strategy guide if they already know that Eevee plus fire stone equals Flareon.

[0] Minus a handful of annoying content edits for the US market which don't really impact the story

[1] As in, the game was written from the perspective of American kids in a modern-day suburban environment. Also, it was hilarious.

[2] To be fair, there is one section of the game that has you literally fighting a giant pile of vomit. All the marketing focused around just that.

[3] Nintendo now calls this EarthBound Beginnings in the US, because they released their translated ROM on Wii U Virtual Console and later Nintendo Switch Online. It is quite possibly the only NES RPG worth playing today.

[4] Mew

[5] And also gave 4Kids false confidence that they could license any cartoon made for young adults, edit it down for small children, and make bank. This would later bury the company in production cost as they spent way too much money photoshopping out all the guns and text from Yu-Gi-Oh! and One Piece to make it 'kid friendly'.

Re: Putting the "J" in the RPG, Part 1: Dorakue

#44
post #23

Counterpoint: "The JRPG label has always been othering[0]," by Kazuma Hashimoto[1] [0] https://www.polygon.com/23677598/jrpg-label-history-othering... [1] https://twitter.com/JusticeKazzy_

> For us as Japanese developers, the first time we heard it, it was like a discriminatory term, as though we were being made fun of for creating these games, and so for some developers, the term can be something that will maybe trigger bad feelings because of what it was in the past, I'm curious when that was because, having played RPGs on various systems since they first existed, I don't recall ever having it been c…

Agreed. I have always used it to simply refer to the different style of RPG which developed in Japan. It's not a discriminatory term (at least, not in the pejorative sense) at all IMO. In fact, I prefer JRPGs.

Re: Putting the "J" in the RPG, Part 1: Dorakue

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For us as Japanese developers, the first time we heard it, it was like a discriminatory term, as though we were being made fun of for creating these games, and so for some developers, the term can be something that will maybe trigger bad feelings because of what it was in the past, I'm curious when that was because, having played RPGs on various systems since they first existed, I don't recall ever having it been c…

Agreed. I have always used it to simply refer to the different style of RPG which developed in Japan. It's not a discriminatory term (at least, not in the pejorative sense) at all IMO. In fact, I prefer JRPGs.

It isn't really a style specific to Japan though, which is the point. Undertale is aesthetically more of a JRPG than Dark Souls. We should just be calling RPGs made in Japan "RPGs."

Re: Putting the "J" in the RPG, Part 1: Dorakue

#46
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Earthbound as a curiously mature JRPG for the time. I like to cite it as an example of a game that is more about the journey than the destination. I could never put my finger on what made that game so compelling. The "Yakuza: Like a Dragon" game had a similar vibe. The working title for it might as well have been "Friendship is Magic." > making sure to stop and take a coffee break every now and then The lesson you…

I could never put my finger on what made that game so compelling. The game's director and writer, Shigesato Itoi, is a creative writer by trade, so he brought a fresh perspective, and frankly, is a better writer than most who work on videogames. Being an outsider, he also wasn't bogged down by common video game tropes.

In fact he brilliantly used his outsider's perspective to lampoon and tweak them.

My favorite examples are the pencil statues, making fun of seemingly arbitrary obstacles in RPGs by introducing a self-admitted arbitrary obstacle, and the rolling HP counters, which cleverly introduced an element of real-time to an otherwise entirely turn-based battle system.

I would also like to once again shout out the third strongest mole as the most brilliant ludo-narrative joke in all of gaming.

Re: Putting the "J" in the RPG, Part 1: Dorakue

#47

>To be sure, there were Americans who found all of the barriers to entry into these deeply foreign worlds to be more bracing than intimidating, who took on the challenge of meeting the games on their own terms, often emerging with a lifelong passion for all things Japanese. At this stage, though, they were the distinct minority. In Japan and the United States alike, the conventional wisdom through the mid-1990s was t…

> What really helped is that the cartoon would actually teach you some of the more obtuse mechanics of Pokemon. No need to give someone the strategy guide if they already know that Eevee plus fire stone equals Flareon.

Does that make Pokemon an ARG?

Re: Putting the "J" in the RPG, Part 1: Dorakue

#48
post #3

I still feel Final Fantasy 6 was the best JRPG of the retro era. At the time it had heavy themes you wouldn’t expect a child to grapple with: the ideas that the good guys can just straight up lose and having to live with the consequences, characters whose arcs may never truly be redeemed (because they can fucking die ), and even complex issues like the passing of loved ones, committing suicide when all hope is lost,…

Mmm, I would say Chrono Trigger and Tales of Phantasia were also up there.

Re: Putting the "J" in the RPG, Part 1: Dorakue

#49
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love Chrono Trigger; it's also what got me into emulation. I wasn't allowed to have an SNES but my 486 could just manage to run an emulator (esnes I think it was called?) that could do SNES with no sound or translucency (there were keyboard shortcuts to toggle the layers so e.g. you could hide fog that would otherwise make the whole screen gray).

zsnes is an older SNES emulator that definitely in its earlier days had some issues with transparent/translucent layers and had keys to turn each layer off. I think I remember needing to use those toggles for the same fog layers in Chrono Trigger that you're talking about (though I definitely wasn't on a 486). I think esnes may be a little bit older?

When I was about 9/10, my grandfather put ZSNES on my computer, along with ROMs for most SNES games ever made.

ZSNES gave me some of the best memories of my childhood.

The coolest bit was that he had soldered a real SNES controller so that it worked with those old-school trapezoid 9-pin keyboard input things. I still think that is pure magic, to this day.

Re: Putting the "J" in the RPG, Part 1: Dorakue

#50
post #23

Counterpoint: "The JRPG label has always been othering[0]," by Kazuma Hashimoto[1] [0] https://www.polygon.com/23677598/jrpg-label-history-othering... [1] https://twitter.com/JusticeKazzy_

> For us as Japanese developers, the first time we heard it, it was like a discriminatory term, as though we were being made fun of for creating these games, and so for some developers, the term can be something that will maybe trigger bad feelings because of what it was in the past, I'm curious when that was because, having played RPGs on various systems since they first existed, I don't recall ever having it been c…

I think it is easier to say it is "just another style" when you're not part of the "other" group & when your identity isn't being boiled down to a particular style of menu systems and combat.

Also important is that WWII brought a lot of discrimination on Japanese people from the West & US in particular. This was an era where movies, like Back to the Future Part II and Robocop 3 kind of went out of their way to portray Japanese people as evil. Today, it might seem like jumping at shadows, but for someone in their 50s who was developing games in the early 90s, this kind of discrimination would be more fresh in their mind, so getting that label from the US media could seem bad.

Today, two way communication is easier, thanks to the Internet, so these confusion points are largely cleared up, and if you watch the video where that quote comes from, Yoshida pretty much goes on to say as much. This isn't brought up in the parent poster's linked article though.

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