280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars • Hacker News Board

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#221

Post by Moldoteck » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 5:27 PM UTC

cornholio wrote: post #185

camgunz wrote: post #83

I've said it before and I'll say it again: building the future around cars of any kind is completely unsustainable. We cannot reproduce the rates of rich world car ownership in the developing world without mass catastrophe (raw materials/labor needed for construction and maintenance, raw materials/labor/space needed for roads and parking lots, literal tons of waste--batteries, tires, steel, plastic, foam--, energy ne…

There is a little something that's missing from the analysis above: what people actually want. And what many people want, across many cultures once they reach a certain level of wealth, is the suburban home: low density living in isolated housing units set in a park like environment with ample greenery. Just look at almost any billionaire's mansion and you will see this pattern which becomes an aspiration for the mid…

It's possible to have both: bike stations near train stations. Ppl from suburbs/low density areas go with bike to train station, and to their destination with the train. You may say ppl don't want this and this may be true, it's about tradeoffs: do you optimise for medium-high density or for low. Nowadays us/canada&even some europe does for low density

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#222

Post by j45 » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 5:27 PM UTC

willio58 wrote: post #117

camgunz wrote: post #83

I've said it before and I'll say it again: building the future around cars of any kind is completely unsustainable. We cannot reproduce the rates of rich world car ownership in the developing world without mass catastrophe (raw materials/labor needed for construction and maintenance, raw materials/labor/space needed for roads and parking lots, literal tons of waste--batteries, tires, steel, plastic, foam--, energy ne…

Fully agreed. And while everything you said is super important and true, one piece that really makes me pumped about this movement to ditch cars is more around quality of life. If you have to get in a car and drive to a parking lot somewhere to get groceries, commute to work, go out with friends, get healthcare, etc. You will obviously live a less healthy life both physically but also mentally because of it. Walking…

Too many cities have physically been designed around driving

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#223

Post by soperj » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 5:27 PM UTC

ackfoobar wrote: post #159

thelastgallon wrote: post #2

We don't need a 4000 lb vehicle to move a ~200 lb person. In order of efficiency: (1) Walk (2) Unicycle, roller skate, scooter (no battery, very little material) (2) Bike (3) Electric bike (and all forms of newfangled electric: escooters, segways) (4) Electric motorbike or scooter (5) Mass transit (can be public/private) transportation: Electric trains (6) Mass transit (can be public/private) transportation: Electric…

Many aspects to the word "efficiency". Space efficiency - how wide it takes to reach a certain throughput - train wins Time efficiency - how much time it takes to get from point A to point B - barring traffic, car wins Energy efficiency - how much energy it takes - bike wins Your argument is just as strong without the subjective ranking of efficiency.

Majority of my time commuting the bike wins every time, mostly because I'm commuting at the same time as everyone else.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#224

Post by darkwizard42 » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 5:27 PM UTC

crawdog wrote: post #39

This is an area that government subsidies could really influence change in urban planning and cutting oil demand. If there was a similar subsidy on bikes as there are on electric cars, I would expect the push back against bike infrastructure would become less. Right now in the Bay Area through poor design and aging infrastructure there is push back on bike lanes. An example is the Richmond bridge, which has a protect…

Your second example doesn’t make much sense because you can’t actually get across to SF via bike, the bike section ends at Treasure Island.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#225

Post by renewiltord » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 5:27 PM UTC

adgjlsfhk1 wrote: post #162

c22 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bicycles are like 98% in terms of distance/effort so even when you factor in the manufacture/materials it seems like it's pretty hard to improve on. When you account for calorie transport it's possible the e-bike comes out on top, especially if charged from a local renewable electricity source. []: https://pedalchile.com/blog/cycling-vs-walking

at a micro level that's probably true, but from a public policy perspective, I'm willing to bet that regular bikes effect to increase fitness probably saves more carbon in the long run (healthcare is pretty calorie intensive).

From a public policy perspective, we've had bikes for eons and usage has always been minuscule and now we have ebikes and usage has jumped. So that particular experiment has already been run.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#226

Post by estebank » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 5:28 PM UTC

zzzeek wrote: post #213

estebank wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've identified a problem: public transport in some places sucks. But then veered away from the obvious solution: invest in it to make it not suck.

throwing money at urban problems does not necessarily have a great track record, and NYCTA has had lots of issues with corruption when they do have money to spend. Id be pretty skeptical that giving them a lot of money would mean you can hop on a train in 5 minutes at 2 am, it wouldnt even be cost effective to run that many trains at odd hours. Cars are terrific for this use case, however. NYC cops have like a billio…

Somehow the argument against more money for infrastructure is never levied against freeway expansions.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#227

Post by simmanian » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 5:28 PM UTC

sgu999 wrote: post #131

simmanian wrote: post #48

I bought an ebike to complement my aging 2007 Toyota instead of replacing it outright with another car. I use the bike for most light use cases within the 10 mile radius and still lean into using my car when needed. Here are my takes on ebikes. Pros: - Ebikes help people punch above their weight class, allowing them to bike farther and faster - Going uphill is much easier - Ebikes encourage people to be more adventur…

> - Good ebikes cost as much as my 2007 toyota Car manufacturers are operating on razor thin margins and intend to recoup some of it elsewhere... or at least I've been told. I agree that the price of ebikes really doesn't seem to match their value. They are in the same price range as electric mopeds, which have a much bigger battery, need more material to build and have to abide by more regulations. Is it because the…

My initial thought after reading this comment is, it probably requires a lot more "tech" and design work to allow bikers to have that seamless biking experience while giving them the desired boost. I remember seeing a lot of discussions around how certain motors "feel" on ebike forums.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#228

Post by uneekname » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 5:28 PM UTC

radium3d wrote: post #200

paddy_m wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oulu Finland would challenge your perception about good weather riding. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU

Haha fun, hey I snowboard for entire days so I do know that snow clothing is fantastic now, so I believe it. But still doesn't solve for the distance problem in our area. A lot of people commute a very long way and not everyone can work 5, or even 20 miles from their home with cost of living so high sadly. EV cars are fantastic for them.

Honest question, is an EV really less expensive than living closer to work for most people? I live in a city where rent is fairly high, and I'm fortunate enough to afford a comfortable apartment with a roommate. To buy an EV though (if I wanted one...), would be completely out of my budget.

If the math works out for some people, they should do what's best for them. But I don't really think that is the case most of the time. Living in a modest apartment and using your bike is almost always less expensive.

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#229

Post by houseatrielah » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 5:28 PM UTC

dv_dt wrote: post #176

willio58 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fully agreed. And while everything you said is super important and true, one piece that really makes me pumped about this movement to ditch cars is more around quality of life. If you have to get in a car and drive to a parking lot somewhere to get groceries, commute to work, go out with friends, get healthcare, etc. You will obviously live a less healthy life both physically but also mentally because of it. Walking…

This is such an interesting comment to me because it gets so much right on how to motivate ditching cars. If you were funding a campaign to eliminate cars to reduce carbon emissions I think you would meet with widespread resistance. If you promote an idea of a higher quality life that is possible w/o cars and explore that - in the end I think you'd end up removing many more cars than the first approach.

I think the root cause is further up the chain of casuality. People need cars because they live in the suburbs, they live in the suburbs because they have children, they want to raise children in more square footage than the urban housing stock offers.

Notable exception being Tokyo

Ironically, if you look NYC in the 1910s, kids used to play baseball in the street because it wasn't yet overrun by cars, suddenly not enough space for kids, so move to the suburbs, which means more and more cars...

Re: 280M e-bikes and mopeds are cutting demand for oil far more than electric cars

#230

Post by reocha » Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 5:28 PM UTC

zzzeek wrote: post #213

estebank wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've identified a problem: public transport in some places sucks. But then veered away from the obvious solution: invest in it to make it not suck.

throwing money at urban problems does not necessarily have a great track record, and NYCTA has had lots of issues with corruption when they do have money to spend. Id be pretty skeptical that giving them a lot of money would mean you can hop on a train in 5 minutes at 2 am, it wouldnt even be cost effective to run that many trains at odd hours. Cars are terrific for this use case, however. NYC cops have like a billio…

Cops and public transport are two completely different things.