Nice to see everybody buying train tickets. Cheaper plane tickets for me.
The night train revolution has been hailed as an alternative to airplanes
41–50 of 95 posts
Re: The night train revolution has been hailed as an alternative to airplanes
#42You can also hear OBB’s Kurt Bauer on this episode of The Bottom Line from a few weeks ago: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001ryt1 Capacity is ultimately much harder to expand on 1D trains compared to 3D airspace. Economic pressure also means the removal of what is, for many people, the most romantic part of the whole experience: the dining car. The economics seem to be this is basically always going to be about f…
People want to move fast. Planes are great for this. Freight has no opinion about speed. Trains are great for this. Reducing the total amount of freight that has to be moved, and moving as much of it to rail as possible, is the easiest improvement we can make. I think the US falls short sometimes because of the unwillingness to admit of excessive first class things that can help subsidize cheaper options.
> People want to move fast.
This hypothesis doesn’t explain why international (night) trains are booming again in Europe.
Re: The night train revolution has been hailed as an alternative to airplanes
#43I regularly take the Amtrak Crescent overnight to visit family down south. With two people (my wife and I), a roomette has been about on par with air travel pricewise the last couple of times we've traveled. Total privacy, comfy accomodations, internet access, meals and snacks included. Yeah, it does take longer, but frankly I find air travel to be stressful and uncomfortable. The longer travel time is worth it to me…
> I regularly take the Amtrak Crescent overnight to visit family down south. With two people (my wife and I), a roomette has been about on par with air travel pricewise the last couple of times we've traveled. Total privacy, comfy accomodations, internet access, meals and snacks included.
I'd really like to travel by train sleeper car, but I just can't justify it as transportation (rather than as "an experience") given the prices.
In the US, either air travel needs to get a lot more expensive, or they need to pump subsidies into trains, or it'll stay an impracticable niche thing.
Re: The night train revolution has been hailed as an alternative to airplanes
#44"Hailed" by many people many times over the last 100 years but the idea has mostly not worked in many countries.
From what I can work out, the economics don't scale in the way we would assume. 200 people on a train sounds like a large economy of scale, and indeed, on the excursion trains we have been on, it is cheaper than a normal 1st class ticket for a longer journey even with 20-30 paid employees aboard but I don't think the access charges work for regular trains.
Hopefully they can work in the US although from what I understand, the Eastern seaboard is much more setup for passenger traffic than the rest where you are more likely to get slow average speeds or frequent stops for single track.
At the same time, people who compare the plane usually compare the air ticket to the train ticket, not the ticket to the airport, the things you might buy there, the time you have to waste waiting, the car parking at both ends etc.
Re: The night train revolution has been hailed as an alternative to airplanes
#45i took a sleeper car on an overnight train from dc to chicago. it got delayed for 5 hours in sub zero temperatures _with no power/heat_ because one of the cars caught on fire. Other that that the trip was great.
Re: The night train revolution has been hailed as an alternative to airplanes
#46I regularly take the Amtrak Crescent overnight to visit family down south. With two people (my wife and I), a roomette has been about on par with air travel pricewise the last couple of times we've traveled. Total privacy, comfy accomodations, internet access, meals and snacks included. Yeah, it does take longer, but frankly I find air travel to be stressful and uncomfortable. The longer travel time is worth it to me…
> I regularly take the Amtrak Crescent overnight to visit family down south. With two people (my wife and I), a roomette has been about on par with air travel pricewise the last couple of times we've traveled. Total privacy, comfy accomodations, internet access, meals and snacks included. I'd really like to travel by train sleeper car, but I just can't justify it as transportation (rather than as "an experience") giv…
> I'd really like to travel by train sleeper car, but I just can't justify it as transportation
What an odd comment. It gets you where you're going, the same as any other form of transportation. For a long time it was the default way people took long distance trips. I don't take it repeatedly for the "experience". I take it because it's a more pleasant way to travel at roughly the same price point.
Do you also consider road trips or long bus rides to be not transportation?
> given the prices.
Again, with two people, it's been about the same price the last few times we've done it.
Re: The night train revolution has been hailed as an alternative to airplanes
#47I've heard stories of people taking the Empire Builder from Whitefish, MT to Seattle which leaves at about 10:30pm and gets you to King Street at 11:30am. Pretty niche I realize, but it's an observed phenomenon and I would be interested in trying it when I move back to the Flathead someday.
Re: The night train revolution has been hailed as an alternative to airplanes
#48It's not. It's expensive, noisy, takes a long time (6h door to door) and is uncomfortable as fuck. I recently had to go to Edinburgh. It was £235 standard class to get a train that takes several hours. Or £80 to get a plane that takes 2h door to door (1h in the air). If I want to go anywhere in Europe it's quicker, easier and almost always cheaper to fly. Even on a bad Lufthansa flight where everything goes wrong :)…
A sleeper train takes 0 useful hours, because you’re asleep. Plus you potentially save on a night’s accommodation. Last time I took the Caledonian Sleeper was for a morning meeting in Glasgow. My colleagues flew from Luton on the first morning flight and turned up irritable and tired. I got the Cally Sleeper and was fresh as a daisy with no time wasted - in fact I could do a couple of hours’ work while they were trog…
> A sleeper train takes 0 useful hours, because you’re asleep.
Only if you manage to fall/stay asleep...
Re: The night train revolution has been hailed as an alternative to airplanes
#49In Europe these night trains are useless IMO. Air travel within Europe is cheap and easy, night trains are far more expensive, slow and run unreliable schedules sometimes, and they often don’t even take you to places you want to go. In America though, night trains would be awesome, since air travel is expensive, hellish, and the country is built in a way that the destinations most people will want to go to are alread…
"Air travel within Europe is cheap and easy" 1. This can change due to political reasons. E.g. "As part of far-reaching 2021 climate legislation, France proposed banning domestic flights where equivalent journeys taking less than two-and-a-half hours on its excellent and wide-ranging rail network are available." 2. Yes, you all know the USD 10 airfaires from Ryanair. But often destinations are very limited and often…
France has an excellent high speed rail network it has less need for domestic flights. Other countries in the EU could learn from that.
Germany particularly is a basket case. If you take the "high speed" train from Berlin to Köln, it takes nearly five hours, the train stops lots of times, and with the exception of a few tens of kilometers never hits anywhere near its maximum speed. Combined with all the delays, cancelled trains, strikes, etc. It makes for a bit unpredictable experience. Domestic flights are well under 1 hour, typically. Even with the hassle of getting to and from airports, it's way faster.
https://www.openrailwaymap.org/ has a nice map that you can show the maximum speeds on rail segments. Spain and France are the best. I've taken high speed trains in both and their high speed trains go the maximum speed most of the journey. Germany is notable for just not having a lot of rail suitable for its trains to drive their maximum speed.
Germany could do a lot better. But it will require massive investments.
I think the idea of a night train is more attractive than the reality of it being very slow, expensive, and relatively uncomfortable (at least I never managed to sleep well on one).
IMHO domestic flights in many countries can start transitioning to fully electric hops in the next decade or so. Anything under 700 miles is fair game for that. The battery technology is getting there. So, investing in lots of rail might not be the smartest thing.
Re: The night train revolution has been hailed as an alternative to airplanes
#50Not a night train, but this summer we went on vacation to Scotland from Germany and took the Amsterdam-Newcastle overnight ferry instead of flying. One major issue is one of headspace, as you sacrifice a day of holiday for a day of travel. You have to feel on holiday right as you enter the train. If you're getting antsy for every hour not spend at your destination, you will never be happy with anything but flying. Bu…
I feel very similar to you. My family took an overnight Amtrak from Albany to Chicago. We got a full sleeper room which ranges from $500-$1000 per person per room, which is certainly more expensive than a flight, and I recognize it's a privilege that we can afford it. That being said, it was far more enjoyable than flying. It left Albany at 7pm and the kids (3 and 5) were beyond thrilled to be on a train. Laying back and watching the sun set as I watched America go by in the window was beautiful and romantic. The beds were fine. And on top of that it has a dramatically lower (close to an order of magnitude) carbon footprint, something I believe you need to care about if you have kids. I understand that this won't work for everyone in every scenario but I do think it's great option that people should consider more.