Live data from Hacker News

The Lack of Compensation in Open Source Software Is Unsustainable

trstringer.com

31–40 of 413 posts

Re: The Lack of Compensation in Open Source Software Is Unsustainable

#31
post #7

The annoying part in this debate is people spending their lives on a project and demanding to be paid for it. Don’t do it! Who’s asking you to work on it? I say this as a minor OSS developer who receives some donations. I love the money, but it would be pretty dumb for me to say they oughta pay me, because the only reason I work on it is addiction/compulsion/procrastination of real work. If it bothered me that people…

It goes both ways. Crowd blame the maintainer if they change the license for the future updates. So it makes sense to blame the crowd if they want the updates for free.

But I agree with you. Open source projects shouldn't have any obligation to listen to the people if they change the license. Even if they intentionally bait and switch, the users should only expect the current version to be open source and shouldn't expect free updates for life.

Re: The Lack of Compensation in Open Source Software Is Unsustainable

#32
post #7

The annoying part in this debate is people spending their lives on a project and demanding to be paid for it. Don’t do it! Who’s asking you to work on it? I say this as a minor OSS developer who receives some donations. I love the money, but it would be pretty dumb for me to say they oughta pay me, because the only reason I work on it is addiction/compulsion/procrastination of real work. If it bothered me that people…

[deleted]

Re: The Lack of Compensation in Open Source Software Is Unsustainable

#33

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say it's perfectly ok to charge folks for software and if you're OSS project isn't motivating you like it used to, it's perfectly ok to charge users for support/updates/bugfixes.

Yes, the main reason why people don't do this is because they aren't psychologically ready to find out that the thing which cost them a lot of effort has very little monetary value.

Re: The Lack of Compensation in Open Source Software Is Unsustainable

#34
post #30

The feeling of entitlement people have around open source is unsustainable. If someone releases code then that's it. You have it. Do what you want with it (within it's licence). Be thankful. Unless that guy specifically says he's going to maintain it for free you are entitled to exactly absolutely nothing more you ungrateful little git. If you add this code to your project, you should fix and share any problems you e…

What is the evidence for this feeling of entitlement? I use tons of free software. I've never either demanded that anyone work on it for free, nor have I expressed any sense of entitlement or expectation.

You’re in the majority. But look through any issue list of popular(ish) oss projects and there’s a small but very vocal minority just sucking up the maintainers’ energies like vampires.

Re: The Lack of Compensation in Open Source Software Is Unsustainable

#35
post #7

The annoying part in this debate is people spending their lives on a project and demanding to be paid for it. Don’t do it! Who’s asking you to work on it? I say this as a minor OSS developer who receives some donations. I love the money, but it would be pretty dumb for me to say they oughta pay me, because the only reason I work on it is addiction/compulsion/procrastination of real work. If it bothered me that people…

> I keep reading from project leaders like ESLint’s things like “if only they paid $1 each…” as if that made any economic sense at all. If they paid $1 each, you would not hand thousands let alone millions of users. From another angle, if I gave a dollar a month to every Free Software program or library I used that month, it would cost me thousands of dollars a month. Obviously that isn't realistic. I have donated to…

I don't think anyone is expecting you to donate to literally every project you use. However, say your business is to build and sell a product done in JS. You already have a bunch of JS devs, whom you may have even bought those sweet MacBooks. Let's also say, you're invested in keeping the code quality high, which you boast about in your product web page. Why not donate a $100/month to the JSLint project which is part of your toolchain anyway and helps you achieve your goals? The annual cost is probably less then you'd spend on the toilet paper for the office. You get a maintained product, they get some money to support their efforts. It's clearly a win win.

Re: The Lack of Compensation in Open Source Software Is Unsustainable

#36
The article doesn't make any argument why the current situation is unsustainable - it does point out some problems, but as far as we can see, there's no reason why current situation, with all its drawbacks and limitations, couldn't go on for ever, i.e. be sustainably sustained.

Some contributors will quit, but that doesn't imply that the system is unsustainable, as long as some more people will temporarily make some contributions, and we're not seeing an imminent collapse where people will stop scratching their itches and publishing the resulting code as open source.

Re: The Lack of Compensation in Open Source Software Is Unsustainable

#37
I agree, however, compensation in general is reaching a point where rational value calculations are fraying. I can't explain why an engineer, though well paid, is making .01% of the CEO's salary, nor can I explain why an engineer doing the same work but in the Philippines is making 40% of the salary of the one in the USA.

I was very inspired by "Walkaway" by Cory Doctorow. It involves a world where people detach themselves from "Default" (global capitalist society) by living in abandoned towns, building the tooling they need to re-establish a modern quality of life. He pulled a great deal on the open source movement in his speculations of how this might look. What I didn't realize at the time is it is essentially an anarchist proposition of community self-reliance. In the novel, there's no point in seeking compensation for your work, because your basic needs are already met by a share-and-share-alike society, and therefore everything you do fulfills either a very clear personal or community need (building a tractor, a house, software to manage a farm, a public spa, or repair schedules), or, is purely for pleasure.

My friend that's sticking it out in the USA is doing the "correct" path for an engineer: First gig in our hometown, transitioned to NYC, did a 4 year tour there saving a couple hundred K, house upstate, still working and saving for retirement but also farming ants and doing his other odd projects for his pleasure. In a recent conversation he mentioned frustration at the poor retirement opportunities for most of our generation. You gamble your life saving's on the stock market, or, do something that doesn't really benefit the world like flipping properties, if you can afford it. If your interest is self fulfillment, community fulfillment, and financial fulfillment as we grow older, that doesn't really exist, at least not in any combination that we've been able to figure out. He's thinking about some kind of ethical business venture, or maybe just a fun thing he can kick off that he can hire his non-engineering friends into like a cute little sandwich shop or something, but as he enters that world he's realizing all his competition is hyper-capitalized businesses or people that he can't possibly compete with if he doesn't do the same shit they're doing, such as filling their kitchens with undocumented immigrants. Basically, if he wants to do good and get paid for it, the opportunities just don't seem to be there.

So therefore, long term what I want to strive for as I build out open source software is actions that "break us out of the box." I and my like minded friends don't really think capitalism is going to cut it in terms of actually rewarding with money our efforts to do good in the world; after all, an investment banker makes more than a teacher and firefighter combined, and does functionally nothing useful. Therefore I'm interested in building things that free people from a financial burden. Every little financial burden I can free people from is a success. I love when I read stories about people building out little GPT programs that can automatically negotiate parking bills or whatever. Or scan your email to automatically apply for rebates and coupons. Or, outside of actual coding, helping people find out that their library has a streaming app they can use for free, so they don't have to pay netflix anymore. Or helping people turn their lawns into gardens, to reduce their food bills.

From a software standpoint, the "Awesome Selfhosted" project is very inspiring in this vein: https://github.com/awesome-selfhosted/awesome-selfhosted Lots of tools that many people pay for that you can instead deploy on your own and use for free in a way you control.

That's the kind of open source software I want to build. Trying to get paid to build FOSS is a distraction, instead I want to build things that will help people not have to pay for other stuff. I make plenty of money in my day job, I'm good on that front. Pipe dream, we do enough of it, and the question of "getting paid" becomes moot.

Even in this thread we can see the toxicity around trying to get paid to do good in the world. "What, you did something good for free and expected to get paid for it, what are you, an entitled moron?" vs "FOSS software is the backbone of your organization, if you don't pay for it, you are evil." I think it's just so frustrating how twisted up things are. Normally you get paid to do engineering, but if you build something genuinely useful for people, now you don't get paid, but somehow you're an asshole for asking to get paid, and also you're naive for thinking any organization would ever pay for something they don't have to pay for... what a mess. What a rats nest of competing values and accusations. It's not worth trying to fit what imo often inspires FOSS, namely "fixing a problem in our society," into the capitalist mode of thinking, "and getting rewarded for it." If you want to fix things in society, build FOSS, if you want to get rich, take contracts, charge your clients 200/hr for engineering time, put Indian engineers on it, and pay them 10/hr. There, now you're rich. So what?

Edit: on reflection I think basically our efforts to do good for people by writing foss will simply be exploited for profit by corporations, so better to walk into this understanding that, and for those that aren't happy with that state of affairs, try writing foss that can help other people escape these kinds of exploitation.

Re: The Lack of Compensation in Open Source Software Is Unsustainable

#38
post #30

The feeling of entitlement people have around open source is unsustainable. If someone releases code then that's it. You have it. Do what you want with it (within it's licence). Be thankful. Unless that guy specifically says he's going to maintain it for free you are entitled to exactly absolutely nothing more you ungrateful little git. If you add this code to your project, you should fix and share any problems you e…

What is the evidence for this feeling of entitlement? I use tons of free software. I've never either demanded that anyone work on it for free, nor have I expressed any sense of entitlement or expectation.

One example I noticed recently is when YouTube stopped allowing ad-blockers. You should have seen the people posting on the uBlock subreddit demanding it being fixed, it was kind of crazy.

Re: The Lack of Compensation in Open Source Software Is Unsustainable

#39
post #25

Most complex, unique, value producing things have a path to monetization for the builder of the thing. If the money isn’t there for the builder they are either not leveraging their relationship to the thing correctly, or the thing does not have the value the builder may think it has.

> have a path to monetization for the builder

The existence of the path to monetization is entirely outside their control though. Millions of people make viral videos, very few have benefited from it. The financial system disincentivizes or outright bans open-product monetization.

Re: The Lack of Compensation in Open Source Software Is Unsustainable

#40
post #30

The feeling of entitlement people have around open source is unsustainable. If someone releases code then that's it. You have it. Do what you want with it (within it's licence). Be thankful. Unless that guy specifically says he's going to maintain it for free you are entitled to exactly absolutely nothing more you ungrateful little git. If you add this code to your project, you should fix and share any problems you e…

What is the evidence for this feeling of entitlement? I use tons of free software. I've never either demanded that anyone work on it for free, nor have I expressed any sense of entitlement or expectation.

He didnt mean you specifically. But there are lots of people demanding fixes like its their birthright.
Post reply on HN