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Anomalous propagation and the sinking of the Russian warship Moskva

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Re: Anomalous propagation and the sinking of the Russian warship Moskva

#21

Post by throwaway290 »

zmgsabst wrote: post #16

Or like carrots being good for eyesight, this is a convenient cover for other assets used. Eg, NATO observation craft or satellites. Per Wiki, we have a satellite image from shortly after it was struck: > An image from a satellite with cloud-penetrating synthetic aperture radar (SAR) revealed that at 18:52 local time (UTC+03:00) on 13 April 2022, Moskva was located at 45°10′43.39″N 30°55′30.54″E, about 80 nautical mi…

If you are told "there's a sniper in that window" it's critical info but you still need to aim your gun precisely with your eyes since "that window" is big enough that you can shoot all your ammo before you hit. Radar is the eyes of anti-ship missiles

Re: Anomalous propagation and the sinking of the Russian warship Moskva

#22

Post by contrarian1234 »

zmgsabst wrote: post #16

Or like carrots being good for eyesight, this is a convenient cover for other assets used. Eg, NATO observation craft or satellites. Per Wiki, we have a satellite image from shortly after it was struck: > An image from a satellite with cloud-penetrating synthetic aperture radar (SAR) revealed that at 18:52 local time (UTC+03:00) on 13 April 2022, Moskva was located at 45°10′43.39″N 30°55′30.54″E, about 80 nautical mi…

> 5. Neptune launchers and missiles in flight are fed data from TB2.

This part is really hard to believe. I briefly worked with radar systems (though nothing classified) These systems are all ancient and janky don't just integrate like lego. You can't just take a radar feed from a drone and feed it into the control system of a cruise missile lol

Even AEGIS systems can't really do that effectively - let alone systems from two different countries (cutting edge military stuff is tech wise in like the 90s at best)

It's not impossible, and it's wartime.. So maybe some Ukrainian engineers hacked something together - but I find this part very unlikely

To me it seems much more likely they got a radar bounce back due to a freak weather phenomena

Re: Anomalous propagation and the sinking of the Russian warship Moskva

#23

Post by hef19898 »

avs733 wrote: post #19
fancazzista wrote: post #13

Or it was simply located by one of the many, many NATO spy planes circling around in the Romanian territorial waters.

Located and targeted are different. Until Ukraine recently got patriot batteries and humans I highly doubt anything they have could be cued by the NATO radars. More importantly I doubt the us would, and I’m not even sure most strategic isr resources like you think of could pass targeting data in real time to missle systems.

There is not much about the Neptune online, the system tested in aprallel so (Wikipedia is great dor stuff like that) has automtic and manual guidance systems. Ukraine choose Neptune over that other system, so I assume Neptune has the same.

Manual guidance wouod allow you to shoot the missile in the direction of the located target, until you are close enough for the missile to lock on and have it hit using automatic guidance. No idea what was done during hat particular attack, but it sure was possible without radar sorcery.

Re: Anomalous propagation and the sinking of the Russian warship Moskva

#24

Post by hurryer »

avs733 wrote: post #19
fancazzista wrote: post #13

Or it was simply located by one of the many, many NATO spy planes circling around in the Romanian territorial waters.

Located and targeted are different. Until Ukraine recently got patriot batteries and humans I highly doubt anything they have could be cued by the NATO radars. More importantly I doubt the us would, and I’m not even sure most strategic isr resources like you think of could pass targeting data in real time to missle systems.

Ships move slowly, you don't need integration, you can input by hand the coordinates. The missile has terminal stage radar guidance.

Ukraine also had a Bayraktar drone flying around the ship area at that time. It could have picked up rough coordinates from that.

Re: Anomalous propagation and the sinking of the Russian warship Moskva

#25

Post by hurryer »

contrarian1234 wrote: post #22
zmgsabst wrote: post #16

Or like carrots being good for eyesight, this is a convenient cover for other assets used. Eg, NATO observation craft or satellites. Per Wiki, we have a satellite image from shortly after it was struck: > An image from a satellite with cloud-penetrating synthetic aperture radar (SAR) revealed that at 18:52 local time (UTC+03:00) on 13 April 2022, Moskva was located at 45°10′43.39″N 30°55′30.54″E, about 80 nautical mi…

> 5. Neptune launchers and missiles in flight are fed data from TB2. This part is really hard to believe. I briefly worked with radar systems (though nothing classified) These systems are all ancient and janky don't just integrate like lego. You can't just take a radar feed from a drone and feed it into the control system of a cruise missile lol Even AEGIS systems can't really do that effectively - let alone systems…

It's a single high value target. You can input the coordinate by hand.

Re: Anomalous propagation and the sinking of the Russian warship Moskva

#26

Post by sgt101 »

avs733 wrote: post #19
fancazzista wrote: post #13

Or it was simply located by one of the many, many NATO spy planes circling around in the Romanian territorial waters.

Located and targeted are different. Until Ukraine recently got patriot batteries and humans I highly doubt anything they have could be cued by the NATO radars. More importantly I doubt the us would, and I’m not even sure most strategic isr resources like you think of could pass targeting data in real time to missle systems.

Even in the 1990's missiles would re-acquire targets after losing them - or after turning off their active targeting systems in order to prevent countermeasures being taken against them.

It's plausible that Ukraine was told where the ship was, launched the missiles in that direction and they acquired and targeted the ship autonomously when they got closer. Of course that's pretty risky as a gambit but the downside was a failed strike and the upside was a doomed capital ship.

Re: Anomalous propagation and the sinking of the Russian warship Moskva

#27

Post by justsomehnguy »

zmgsabst wrote: post #16

Or like carrots being good for eyesight, this is a convenient cover for other assets used. Eg, NATO observation craft or satellites. Per Wiki, we have a satellite image from shortly after it was struck: > An image from a satellite with cloud-penetrating synthetic aperture radar (SAR) revealed that at 18:52 local time (UTC+03:00) on 13 April 2022, Moskva was located at 45°10′43.39″N 30°55′30.54″E, about 80 nautical mi…

The key part here is what Moskva was alone there, without any other assets, which could provide additional AA cover.

For whatever reasons it's own AA wasn't function properly so the chances to hit were exceptional.

I don't believe some folks on the shore would just scan the sea beyond the horizon just in case they could get a lock. That's not how it works. Maybe they could get a lock (it's still a possibility) but that's the difference between the targeting mode only.

It was a US intelligence operation from the start to the end.

Re: Anomalous propagation and the sinking of the Russian warship Moskva

#29

Post by bell-cot »

weatherlight wrote: post #5

I feel like this is a known tactic. the US Army has been using scatter communications since the Vietnam War to make radio communications go further.

IIR, this atmospheric effect on radar ranges was first noticed (and taken advantage of) during WWII.

Re: Anomalous propagation and the sinking of the Russian warship Moskva

#30

Post by scotty79 »

dontlaugh wrote: post #28
fancazzista wrote: post #13

Or it was simply located by one of the many, many NATO spy planes circling around in the Romanian territorial waters.

Indeed, us Romanians have Ukrainian and Russian blood on our hands too.

Russian blood doesn't seem to matter much these days. Even to those to whom it should matter the most, namely the Russians themselves.
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