[flagged]
this is a narrow topic involving interesting science, not a polarizing political debate. there are plenty of other places on the internet to argue about politics.
Anomalous propagation and the sinking of the Russian warship Moskva
11–20 of 48 posts
Re: Anomalous propagation and the sinking of the Russian warship Moskva
#12[flagged]
this is a narrow topic involving interesting science, not a polarizing political debate. there are plenty of other places on the internet to argue about politics.
I've noticed a rather curious silence on the issue and I'm sure many others have as well. Here's some interesting narrow technological content on the issue, let's see what happens:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/erictegler/2023/11/03/a-new-mic...
Re: Anomalous propagation and the sinking of the Russian warship Moskva
#13Or it was simply located by one of the many, many NATO spy planes circling around in the Romanian territorial waters.
Re: Anomalous propagation and the sinking of the Russian warship Moskva
#14https://web.archive.org/web/20231117010516/https://journals....
Abstract
On 13 April 2022, the Russian warship Moskva was hit by two Ukrainian Neptune anti-ship missiles in the Black Sea, leading to its demise. Before launching an anti-ship missile, a target must first be detected and positioned, for example by an accompanying radar system. However, when the missiles hit the Moskva she was well beyond the normal radar horizon of any ground-based radar system, making the ship undetectable under normal circumstances. Using meteorological reanalysis data, we show that at the time of the missile launch the prevailing weather conditions allowed a ground-based radar to detect targets far beyond the normal radar horizon through anomalous propagation conditions. During such conditions, the atmospheric index of refraction decreases rapidly with height, making electromagnetic radiation bend downward to, partly or fully, compensate the curvature of the Earth. The results show that atmospheric conditions must be considered carefully, even during warfare, as their impact on radar wave propagation can be considerable.
Re: Anomalous propagation and the sinking of the Russian warship Moskva
#15Earlier quoted context omitted.
this is a narrow topic involving interesting science, not a polarizing political debate. there are plenty of other places on the internet to argue about politics.
I've noticed a rather curious silence on the issue and I'm sure many others have as well. Here's some interesting narrow technological content on the issue, let's see what happens: https://www.forbes.com/sites/erictegler/2023/11/03/a-new-mic...
Topics are pushed off HN by people losing their cool in numbers too large for the usual "three dead comments at the bottom" process to work.
Re: Anomalous propagation and the sinking of the Russian warship Moskva
#16Or like carrots being good for eyesight, this is a convenient cover for other assets used.
Eg, NATO observation craft or satellites.
Per Wiki, we have a satellite image from shortly after it was struck:
> An image from a satellite with cloud-penetrating synthetic aperture radar (SAR) revealed that at 18:52 local time (UTC+03:00) on 13 April 2022, Moskva was located at 45°10′43.39″N 30°55′30.54″E, about 80 nautical miles (150 km) south of Odesa, east of Snake Island and around 50 nmi (90 km) from the Ukrainian coast. An analysis suggested this was not long after the damage occurred which caused the ship to eventually sink. In the image, the cruiser is accompanied by other vessels.
And a US airplane in radar range when the attack happened:
> There was a US Navy P-8A Poseidon maritime surveillance aircraft in the area before the sinking. The P-8A from Italy was patrolling within its radar range over the Black Sea and the US, when asked, did identify the ship as the Moskva as part of intelligence sharing to help Ukraine defend against attack from Russian ships.
And a drone, likely operated by Ukraine:
> The operation to sink Moskva may have been assisted by the use of at least one Bayraktar TB2 drone (UCAV), which seems to have observed the event and may have played other roles in the ship's sinking. […]
> Mevlutoglu mentioned that Rear Admiral Oleksiy Neizhpapa, commander of the Ukrainian naval forces, had in the past suggested that TB2 drones would be used with Neptune launchers for target reconnaissance.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Moskva
A boring but likely kill-chain:
1. SAR satellites spot the Moskva fleet.
2. US P-8 begins a track and feeds that data into shared intelligence.
3. US advisors alert Ukraine that Moskva is spotted and within engagement range.
4. Ukraine TB2 is flown on site, using that data.
5. Neptune launchers and missiles in flight are fed data from TB2.
Re: Anomalous propagation and the sinking of the Russian warship Moskva
#17Or like carrots being good for eyesight, this is a convenient cover for other assets used. Eg, NATO observation craft or satellites. Per Wiki, we have a satellite image from shortly after it was struck: > An image from a satellite with cloud-penetrating synthetic aperture radar (SAR) revealed that at 18:52 local time (UTC+03:00) on 13 April 2022, Moskva was located at 45°10′43.39″N 30°55′30.54″E, about 80 nautical mi…
Agreed. There are so many potential observers who could have detected the craft, feels far more likely that there was someone who had a good bead on the target.
Re: Anomalous propagation and the sinking of the Russian warship Moskva
#18Makes me wonder whether the more competent militaries of the world take this kind of stuff into account when considering whether they're safely out of enemy radar range.
"They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance."
Probably best practice to always assume enemy range is significantly better than reported.
Re: Anomalous propagation and the sinking of the Russian warship Moskva
#19Or it was simply located by one of the many, many NATO spy planes circling around in the Romanian territorial waters.
Located and targeted are different. Until Ukraine recently got patriot batteries and humans I highly doubt anything they have could be cued by the NATO radars. More importantly I doubt the us would, and I’m not even sure most strategic isr resources like you think of could pass targeting data in real time to missle systems.
Re: Anomalous propagation and the sinking of the Russian warship Moskva
#20It is well known and even footage of the actual battle has been released, that Moskva was detected using Bayraktar TB-2 drone. Which also acted as a decoy to make the ship pointing it's air defence system (which has 180 degree coverage) in it's direction to counteract any attempt of attack from it (the drone was beyond engagement range). Thus letting Ukrainians attack with missiles from the other direction, leaving ship with only short-range air defences to protect itself, that didn't do the job.