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The Guardian Deletes Osama Bin Laden's 'Letter to America'

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Re: The Guardian Deletes Osama Bin Laden's 'Letter to America'

#121

Post by x3ro »

reducesuffering wrote: post #101
Bamafan wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What nuance needs to be added to blowing up hospitals?

The nuance where disinformation and lies have convinced you the wrong people blew up a hospital [parking lot]? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Ahli_Arab_Hospital_explosio...

Even if this particular explosion was indeed a misfire, there have been many other attacks on health infrastructure including convoys since then, according to the UN.

https://www.emro.who.int/images/stories/palestine/WHO_oPt_Si...

Re: The Guardian Deletes Osama Bin Laden's 'Letter to America'

#122

Post by simonsarris »

jameslk wrote: post #21

> The Guardian has removed a letter written by Osama Bin Laden, explaining his war against the United States is partly because of its support of Israel, after it had gone viral on TikTok. If I recall correctly, the terrorists attacked the US because they "don't like freedom". That was the narrative on TV nonstop and any wavering from full support of the wars or "supporting the troops" was tantamount to supporting ter…

> If I recall correctly, the terrorists attacked the US because they "don't like freedom"

The letter very clearly states that they don't like freedom! It very specifically calls out permissiveness of sex, gays, banking (as every western nation sees it, contra Islamic banking), gambling, alcohol, and separation of church and state as evils:

> (a) We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honour, and purity; to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling's, and trading with interest.

> (b) It is saddening to tell you that you are the worst civilization witnessed by the history of mankind:

> (i) You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator.

> (iv) You are a nation that permits acts of immorality, and you consider them to be pillars of personal freedom. You have continued to sink down this abyss from level to level until incest has spread amongst you, in the face of which neither your sense of honour nor your laws object.

Mad we didn't behead old Bill:

> Who can forget your President Clinton's immoral acts committed in the official Oval office? After that you did not even bring him to account, other than that he 'made a mistake', after which everything passed with no punishment. Is there a worse kind of event for which your name will go down in history and remembered by nations?

Re: The Guardian Deletes Osama Bin Laden's 'Letter to America'

#123

Post by s1artibartfast »

megous wrote: post #117
concinds wrote: post #75

From Wikipedia: > Raymond Ibrahim, as a researcher at the Library of Congress, found a significant difference between Al Qaeda's messages in English directed to a Western audience and al Qaeda's Arab messages and documents directed to an Islamic audience. The Western-directed messages listed grievances as grounds for retaliation employing the "language of 'reciprocity.'" Literature for Islamic audiences contained the…

And what's propaganda about adapting your presentation to the target audience? Just in general? If I live under occupation, I don't need to constantly remind it to the locals. They get reminded each time they get randomly sent back at a checkpoint and miss work or cancer treatment, because the checkpoint occupant is frustrated today, or whatever. Western audience, which has no concept of day to day abuses, however, m…

If you are inconsistent in your stated motivations, it means you are a liar and your statements are suspect.

Re: The Guardian Deletes Osama Bin Laden's 'Letter to America'

#124

Post by kiba »

ChuffedToBits wrote: post #114
kiba wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

War may be imposed upon you by one side, such as the invasion of a country. At which point, war stopped being a choice. Terrorism as far as we can see is basically incredibly ineffective for inspiring any sort of changes, and serves to enrage your enemy, much like indiscriminate mass bombing often strengthen the resolve of those who are on the receiving end of it.

But, circling back to 9/11, I often do wonder how the world would look like today, if America had found it within itself to not react with war to the attacks. There was such a broad outpouring of sympathy and support across the world: enough political capital for all kinds of projects. If only a few of those hanging chads in Florida had hung differently, or if Gore had further pressed the issue...

What do you suggest then? I agree that our disproportionate reaction isn't the way to go.

Re: The Guardian Deletes Osama Bin Laden's 'Letter to America'

#125

Post by megous »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #123
megous wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what's propaganda about adapting your presentation to the target audience? Just in general? If I live under occupation, I don't need to constantly remind it to the locals. They get reminded each time they get randomly sent back at a checkpoint and miss work or cancer treatment, because the checkpoint occupant is frustrated today, or whatever. Western audience, which has no concept of day to day abuses, however, m…

If you are inconsistent in your stated motivations, it means you are a liar and your statements are suspect.

So what's the inconsistency? The english text of letter to americans is full of religious shortcommings of US (He's basically complaining in oh so many words that the US is not governed under religious islamic law)

Re: The Guardian Deletes Osama Bin Laden's 'Letter to America'

#126

Post by hnbad »

nonethewiser wrote: post #99
topato wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm starting to think there needs to be a "born post 9/11' disclaimer, as I believe living through that period, while remaining acutely aware of what happened in the Middle East during that period, is where the nuance originates

There is a shocking amount of hindsight bias with the US war in the middle east which seems to entirely forget 9/11. Including those who remember 9/11.

As someone who was old enough on 9/11 to be able to follow the events in real time (watching CNN while also following discussions on news aggregator websites at the time - yeah, those already were a thing): 9/11 did not justify the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, nor the erosion of American civil liberties, nor the mass surveillance against its own allies later uncovered by Snowden.

That the evidence used to justify the invasion of Iraq was fabricated was blatantly obvious at the time and foreign heads of state's statements on it were based more on diplomacy than credibility. The invasion of Afghanistan was easier to justify due to the presence of Al Qaeda in Afghanistan at the time and the cooperation of the Taliban with Al Qaeda but it was widely understood as being motivated by retaliation against Islamism more broadly rather than an attempt to take out the group that orchestrated the attacks. Neither invasion was justified by international law, not that this matters given that the US is not party to the International Criminal Court and has previously pledged to take military action against anyone attempting to extradite US citizens to the Hague.

9/11 was a horrible loss of civilian life and the collapse of the towers itself was a horrific mass death event even without taking any of the planes into account. But the US's invasions and occupation in Afghanistan and Iraq had a civilian death count far exceeding 9/11 and the US deliberately arrested "enemy combatants" and held and tortured them with no legal recourse, often for years without trial. Not to mention the state of the entire region during and after the occupation leading to the rise of ISIS and the return of the Taliban to power after the toothless puppet regime in Afghanistan collapsed.

That Al Qaeda was the Bad Guy doesn't make the US the Good Guy. At best the US is the Less Bad Guy. Preferable but not to be celebrated.

A lot of people born after 9/11 also have no recollection of the levels of racism and jingoism that followed the event: Muslims being ostracized and openly attacked, brown people in general being mistreated on suspicion of being Muslim, the lengths American corporations went to to spite the French for voicing concern when the US announced its intend to enter war in the Middle East.

And a lot of people think they are seeing exactly the same play out in Israel and Gaza since the Oct 7th attacks, except Israel didn't even take time to mourn the victims (or track the hostages) before engaging in a month-long retaliatory bombing campaign with a mind-boggling death toll.

Re: The Guardian Deletes Osama Bin Laden's 'Letter to America'

#127

Post by 93po »

simonsarris wrote: post #122
jameslk wrote: post #21

> The Guardian has removed a letter written by Osama Bin Laden, explaining his war against the United States is partly because of its support of Israel, after it had gone viral on TikTok. If I recall correctly, the terrorists attacked the US because they "don't like freedom". That was the narrative on TV nonstop and any wavering from full support of the wars or "supporting the troops" was tantamount to supporting ter…

> If I recall correctly, the terrorists attacked the US because they "don't like freedom" The letter very clearly states that they don't like freedom! It very specifically calls out permissiveness of sex, gays, banking (as every western nation sees it, contra Islamic banking), gambling, alcohol, and separation of church and state as evils: > (a) We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honour, and purity; t…

It’s funny how it’s okay to call those things evil if you’re a conservative Christian group but we cling onto the same words as one of the justifications to kill and attack another group

Re: The Guardian Deletes Osama Bin Laden's 'Letter to America'

#128

Post by not_the_fda »

93po wrote: post #127
simonsarris wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If I recall correctly, the terrorists attacked the US because they "don't like freedom" The letter very clearly states that they don't like freedom! It very specifically calls out permissiveness of sex, gays, banking (as every western nation sees it, contra Islamic banking), gambling, alcohol, and separation of church and state as evils: > (a) We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honour, and purity; t…

It’s funny how it’s okay to call those things evil if you’re a conservative Christian group but we cling onto the same words as one of the justifications to kill and attack another group

In some circles they are called Y'all Qaeda

Re: The Guardian Deletes Osama Bin Laden's 'Letter to America'

#129

Post by hnbad »

reducesuffering wrote: post #101
Bamafan wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What nuance needs to be added to blowing up hospitals?

The nuance where disinformation and lies have convinced you the wrong people blew up a hospital [parking lot]? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Ahli_Arab_Hospital_explosio...

You seem to be lagging behind on news coverage.

After Israel had an (apparently justified) prolonged media war to combat the claims that it bombed that particular hospital, the IDF then deliberately bombed several other hospitals and even went to the lengths of publishing a 3D animation of an alleged underground complex to justify their intent to bomb the largest hospital which at that time was known to provide shelter to hundreds of civilians. Israel then also posted pictures of piping it misidentified as a tunnel entrance in the debris of a part of the hospital that it had bombed.

The problem with the disinformation and lies is that just like killing civilians this is somewhat anticipated coming from Hamas but catches people off guard when Israel does it and especially when Israel does it so blatantly that it's hard to pretend they're not doing it. Heck, there are now multiple incidents of fabricated evidence relying on the audience's inability to understand Arabic or ignorance of heavy accents that have been shared by official Israeli social media channels. This includes the supposed radio communication demonstrating that Islamists accidentally the entire hospital before it became obvious that it was likely not an Israeli attack and the damage was constrained to the parking lot. Heck, Israel's Twitter account even shared an IDF-affiliated account celebrating and justifying the attack on the hospital prior to this.

So, yes, the IDF most likely did not drop the bomb that apparently blew up that hospital's parking lot. But the IDF most definitely did drop bombs on other hospitals and has stated its intent of doing so and has justified doing so, both before and after this particular explosion. And Israel government social media accounts have incorrectly claimed the explosion as an IDF attack as well as shared fabricated evidence to the contrary and general mis- and disinformation.

In this war more than any others so far, everybody lies and no-one can be trusted. And strangely not only can Israel not be trusted when it denies wrongdoing but also when it explicitly claims it. At least the anti-Israel and pro-Hamas propaganda is normally more predictable. Israeli propaganda at this point feels more like an evolution on Russian propaganda which infamously tries to DDoS any attempt at fact checking by making multiple mutually contradictory claims in short succession.

Re: The Guardian Deletes Osama Bin Laden's 'Letter to America'

#130

Post by sshine »

not_the_fda wrote: post #128
93po wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s funny how it’s okay to call those things evil if you’re a conservative Christian group but we cling onto the same words as one of the justifications to kill and attack another group

In some circles they are called Y'all Qaeda

I guess the similarity falls short of justifying bombing civilians in another country... oh, wait.
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