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I visited over 120 EV chargers: why so many were broken

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Re: I visited over 120 EV chargers: why so many were broken

#121

Post by s_tec »

testfoobar wrote: post #100

Anyone work on EV chargers? Other than cable damage or mechanical damage to the plugs, there are no moving parts. So what specifically inside is likely to stop functioning or needs regular repairs/replacement/maintenance?

I recently build my own a level 2 EV charger from an OpenEVSE kit. The heart of the charger is a big mechanical relay, which connects and disconnects the charging cable based on whether a car is connected. To control the relay, there is a small circuit board that communicates with the car, and also provides over-current, over-temperature, and GFCI monitoring. If any of these things go wrong, the relay will not close and the car will not charge.

The DC fast chargers include similar safety features, in addition to a big AC-DC converter. The DC power supply puts out several hundred amps at whatever voltage the car requests (usually 300V, but sometimes much higher). Normally, currents this high would require super thick & heavy cables, but DC fast chargers often avoid this using water cooling and active temperature monitoring in the cable. As the cable heats up from the excessive current, the charging equipment actively throttles the charging session to keep things from melting.

So yeah, there are a few mechanical things that can go wrong.

Re: I visited over 120 EV chargers: why so many were broken

#122

Post by testfoobar »

s_tec wrote: post #121
testfoobar wrote: post #100

Anyone work on EV chargers? Other than cable damage or mechanical damage to the plugs, there are no moving parts. So what specifically inside is likely to stop functioning or needs regular repairs/replacement/maintenance?

I recently build my own a level 2 EV charger from an OpenEVSE kit. The heart of the charger is a big mechanical relay, which connects and disconnects the charging cable based on whether a car is connected. To control the relay, there is a small circuit board that communicates with the car, and also provides over-current, over-temperature, and GFCI monitoring. If any of these things go wrong, the relay will not close…

Thank you. I didn't know about the complexity of the charging platform and power delivery cables.

TIL that charging cables can be water cooled. Going to geek out a bit on this tonight.

Re: I visited over 120 EV chargers: why so many were broken

#123

Post by inamberclad »

bdcravens wrote: post #106
aidenn0 wrote: post #99

The payment thing just boggles my mind. I've been paying at card readers at a gas pump for 20 years now and exactly once did it not work. It's the one thing that has been completely solved in industry, and it doesn't work with EVs.

I've run into more failures than that at gas pumps, but it is mostly rare like you say. However in almost all cases, they're on the same network as the gas station POS, and I assume hard-wired. The card readers I see at EV spots seem to less durable, similar to the card readers you see on vending machines. I bet they mostly are using cellular to communicate.

That probably comes down to how the infrastructure is built out. A lot of companies are selling EV systems that can be installed in a pre-existing parking lot. A gas station requires installing large underground tanks, so it's not much extra effort to throw the data wires. In order to convince someone a business to install an EV charger, every little bit of effort counts.

Re: I visited over 120 EV chargers: why so many were broken

#124

Post by theshrike79 »

hakfoo wrote: post #111
aidenn0 wrote: post #99

The payment thing just boggles my mind. I've been paying at card readers at a gas pump for 20 years now and exactly once did it not work. It's the one thing that has been completely solved in industry, and it doesn't work with EVs.

FWIW, I think the card industry itself is having to rethink a lot of stuff for EVs. Petrol pumps with card readers are their own little universe of rules and compliance standards within the credit card industry (the formal term is 'Automated Fuel Dispenser'). It's far enough afield that you're looking at specialized software and vendors, in part because a lot of them support fleet cards, which range from "95% normal…

Also the average gas payment is about 10x larger than what charging an EV costs around here. So the amount of money "lost" on credit card fees and whatever the actual physical device costs to operate is relatively a lot bigger.

VS an app, where you keep almost 100% of the money AND can track your users better.

Re: I visited over 120 EV chargers: why so many were broken

#125

Post by smileysteve »

whoopdedo wrote: post #56

My city tapped into a federal grant a few years ago to put a charger in one of the parking lots. The problem is they never budgeted maintenance so it's never worked since the day it was built.

They've done this without thinking of the incentives much too.

A supercharger station I visit is on the outskirts of an old mall (dead after 8pm) parking lot (with no pedestrian experience to the mall). It is okay to go get a milkshake or cookie at until 9 and the walk and bathroom break can top up on supercharger nicely. (The mall bathroom though is poorly maintained)

Or my state incentived chargers at State and city parks that are theoretically closed at dusk, and have no full time maintenance staff or security.

Who did this seeing gas stations and thought, let's put this charger in place that is busy only on fair weather days, not safe at dark (be it wildlife, crime, or the ability to injure yourself), with no secondary revenue (snacks, food) or even bio (restrooms closed after dark or you have to walk through a basketball practice) and said, this is the infrastructure we need. The power co has wisened up now though and worked with gas stations to add a few chargers.

Re: I visited over 120 EV chargers: why so many were broken

#126

Post by userinanother »

ukd1 wrote: post #61
snapetom wrote: post #46

I have now rented two electric vehicles this past year, both for semi-long distance trips. The first was a Kia from SF to Sacramento, and back a few days later, thinking this was California and it should be fine. I tried to use twelve stations and seven were broken/out of order for various reasons. I was so shocked about the sad state of affairs on this, I logged/blogged it. The problems were pretty much like the art…

Try renting a Tesla next time; the network for charging is great, and I think I've only ever had one failure in years, and just moved stalls.

Until you get reamed for 2$ a kw/hr at the hotel level 2 charger.

Re: I visited over 120 EV chargers: why so many were broken

#127

Post by KingOfCoders »

Same in Germany. So many broken chargers for weeks.

Read through the article, but I still don't know why so many are broken and stay broken, it says "So what was wrong with these particular machines? It could be one of many things—a broken part, a power issue, a defective connector."

I don't need an article to answer why are chargers broken if the answer is "Could be one of many things, ...". Why are gasoline stations mostly never broken and chargers broken all the time? (from my limited EV experience in Germany). Why are they unrepaired? That would be journalism.

Re: I visited over 120 EV chargers: why so many were broken

#128

Post by jjtheblunt »

testfoobar wrote: post #100

Anyone work on EV chargers? Other than cable damage or mechanical damage to the plugs, there are no moving parts. So what specifically inside is likely to stop functioning or needs regular repairs/replacement/maintenance?

I am pretty sure there are moving parts including a solenoid or relay and fans.

Re: I visited over 120 EV chargers: why so many were broken

#129

Post by smileysteve »

kristjansson wrote: post #50
thesuitonym wrote: post #12

The main thing about these chargers is that nobody is monitoring them. At a gas station, an attendant is usually less than 20 feet away, and if anyone has a problem, they come talk to that person immediately. That attendant usually can't fix the problem on their own, but they can take steps to get it fixed quickly. By contrast, electric charging stations are typically at the far end of a vast sea of parking. There's…

Given the business model for gas stations (~%0 on the gas, huge on the mini-mart) it seems kinda ridiculous they're not rushing to put fast chargers in every station.

It's a losing proposal in some ways though; by investing in charging today, tomorrow 50% of people will charge at home 95% of the time.

The next 10 years are going to be really interesting for gas stations and car dealerships.

Even if you take just 5% adoption we have so far, that's 3%+ of former once a week gas station customers that now charge at home

Re: I visited over 120 EV chargers: why so many were broken

#130

Post by smileysteve »

giantg2 wrote: post #21
thesuitonym wrote: post #12

The main thing about these chargers is that nobody is monitoring them. At a gas station, an attendant is usually less than 20 feet away, and if anyone has a problem, they come talk to that person immediately. That attendant usually can't fix the problem on their own, but they can take steps to get it fixed quickly. By contrast, electric charging stations are typically at the far end of a vast sea of parking. There's…

I'm usually seeing charging at the front of the parking lots around me. It also wouldn't surprise me if the attendants from charging stations were largely useless as I assume an electrician license would be required for most repairs in most states. But I agree on the whole no cash or app payment thing.

A gas station attendant isn't likely to fix a breakaway hose or pressure nozzle any more than they're going to replace a 240 to 400v cable.

An attendant can reset a pump or circuit breaker though. And more importantly place the service call or call the police for a vandal.

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