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The first two custom silicon chips designed by Microsoft for its cloud

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Re: The first two custom silicon chips designed by Microsoft for its cloud

#161
post #69
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A bit surprised to see Jensen's stage appearance since clearly Microsoft's success with its own AI chips means less business for Nvidia's chips. Because different than the ARM chip also announced in the same Ignite event, Microsoft doesn't exactly "need" nor can fully utilize an AI chip. Google trains its foundational models (e.g. Gemini) on its own TPU hardware but Microsoft's is heavily reliant on OpenAI for its ge…

Microsoft absolutely runs their own models on their own hardware, at scale, and they have done so for years just like every other hyperscaler -- Project Brainwave was first publicly talked about as far back as 2018. The generative LLM craze is a recent phenomenon in comparison. They are absolutely going to go all in on putting AI functionality in Bing, in Excel, in Windows, etc etc. To do that, you need hardware. Non…

They’ve been doing custom accelerators for Bing for a few years. See: project catapult (2012). It’s all on FPGA, but similar.

In some ways, Microsoft was 10 years ahead, but they are terrible as an organization at proliferating research projects to production across multiple orgs.

Re: The first two custom silicon chips designed by Microsoft for its cloud

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It blows my mind that not only are Apple, Nvidia, and all other enormous "chip makers" fabless... but there's ONE single company actually making the majority of all their chips. Why aren't any other companies entering this space? TSMC's growth and profits are immense, it's not like the market couldn't bear more competitors. Also, the current situation is geopolitical insanity. It feels like China and the U.S. are on…

Why doesn't anyone enter? It takes billions and billions of dollars, tons of knowledge and if you get it wrong...even Intel screwed it up, and they are one of the only companies would could even try to do it.

Right now Intel is hamstrung because there is no separation between the fab and design sides. Nobody is going to trust Intel to fab their latest and greatest while the two sides are joined at the hip.

The sooner Intel spins out the fab side into its own entity the better positioned it will be to pick up the business that TSMC doesn't have capacity for.

Re: The first two custom silicon chips designed by Microsoft for its cloud

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they “can’t make the chips fast enough” being TSMC’s second highest volume customer behind Apple and probably second in priority, what chance does Microsoft have getting enough of TSMCs capacity?

It blows my mind that not only are Apple, Nvidia, and all other enormous "chip makers" fabless... but there's ONE single company actually making the majority of all their chips. Why aren't any other companies entering this space? TSMC's growth and profits are immense, it's not like the market couldn't bear more competitors. Also, the current situation is geopolitical insanity. It feels like China and the U.S. are on…

Enter? Companies are trying to keep up.

Just few years ago was four companies doing the bleeding edge: Intel, GlobalFoundries, Samsung and TSMC. Intel was the best. First Global Foundries could not keep up. Then Intel fumbled ant TSMC became the best. Samsung is the only one keeping up with TSMC but they come slightly behind. Intel tries to catch up the two. No companies have "exited" they just can't compete.

The bleeding edge semiconductor node design is like doing Apollo moon program every 4-5 years. Only one can be the best.

Re: The first two custom silicon chips designed by Microsoft for its cloud

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they “can’t make the chips fast enough” being TSMC’s second highest volume customer behind Apple and probably second in priority, what chance does Microsoft have getting enough of TSMCs capacity?

It blows my mind that not only are Apple, Nvidia, and all other enormous "chip makers" fabless... but there's ONE single company actually making the majority of all their chips. Why aren't any other companies entering this space? TSMC's growth and profits are immense, it's not like the market couldn't bear more competitors. Also, the current situation is geopolitical insanity. It feels like China and the U.S. are on…

TSMC makes a lot of money from fabricating chips on old technology using fully depreciated assets. No new competitor is going to spend billions today to fab chips on older technology.

Re: The first two custom silicon chips designed by Microsoft for its cloud

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they “can’t make the chips fast enough” being TSMC’s second highest volume customer behind Apple and probably second in priority, what chance does Microsoft have getting enough of TSMCs capacity?

It blows my mind that not only are Apple, Nvidia, and all other enormous "chip makers" fabless... but there's ONE single company actually making the majority of all their chips. Why aren't any other companies entering this space? TSMC's growth and profits are immense, it's not like the market couldn't bear more competitors. Also, the current situation is geopolitical insanity. It feels like China and the U.S. are on…

>Why aren't any other companies entering this space?

There are? INTC and Samsung?

>falling exclusively under PROC control

It wouldnt fall under PROC control.

It would be destroyed.

Re: The first two custom silicon chips designed by Microsoft for its cloud

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It blows my mind that not only are Apple, Nvidia, and all other enormous "chip makers" fabless... but there's ONE single company actually making the majority of all their chips. Why aren't any other companies entering this space? TSMC's growth and profits are immense, it's not like the market couldn't bear more competitors. Also, the current situation is geopolitical insanity. It feels like China and the U.S. are on…

>Why aren't any other companies entering this space? There are? INTC and Samsung? >falling exclusively under PROC control It wouldnt fall under PROC control. It would be destroyed.

The USA would certainly bomb it if they had to

Re: The first two custom silicon chips designed by Microsoft for its cloud

#167
post #3

It was only a matter of time. Google announced theirs years ago, Amazon announced theirs last year. Right now NVIDIA has the lead because they have the better software, but they can't make the chips fast enough. Will be interesting to see if their better software continues to keep them in the lead or if people are more interested in getting the capacity in any form.

If they “can’t make the chips fast enough” being TSMC’s second highest volume customer behind Apple and probably second in priority, what chance does Microsoft have getting enough of TSMCs capacity?

They buy capacity that is little behind and optimized differently. Apple and Nvidia buy the bleeding edge and develop it with TSCM.

Azure Maia is TSMC N5, I think.

Nvidia H200 and H100 are TSMC 4N.

Re: The first two custom silicon chips designed by Microsoft for its cloud

#168

Arm in inevitable for the server. It's interesting how now days, efficiency/power consumption is a consideration over pure raw performance.

I genuinely don't see how x86 architecture will continue to survive the next 10 years. It will of course take longer to change home desktop users to new architectures; they will be the last segment to switch, but it seems all but inevitable. BTW, I'm not even speaking to whether x86 can compete at the same power per watt... I think it just won't make sense financially to be out of sync with the industry.

ISA doesn't imply performance characteristics.

It's like saying that programming language (syntax) has performance implication.

No, it doesn't. Everything is up to the compiler, runtime and standard library.

Of course there may be some feature that make compiler's life easier, but still things are way, way more complicated than "just take ARM ISA and you'll be king".

https://chipsandcheese.com/2021/07/13/arm-or-x86-isa-doesnt-...

Also even if you assume that ARM has 1-2% better perf than x86, then how many people will risk transition over that? Some will, but majority will no.

Re: The first two custom silicon chips designed by Microsoft for its cloud

#169
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I care vastly more about raw performance than energy usage for my home systems. I also have good reasons to care about the best single core performance. I don't see x86 going away that fast.

FWIW, the current king of single core Geekbench is the M3 chips. Even the base M3 scores as high as the i9-14900K and higher than the Ryzen 9 7950X3D, at less than half their TDPs.

>FWIW, the current king of single core Geekbench is the M3 chips

Are we reading the same scores?

https://browser.geekbench.com/v6/cpu/singlecore

Re: The first two custom silicon chips designed by Microsoft for its cloud

#170
post #7

This seems a little unclear to me. They're saying this isn't meant to compete with Nvidia, and that it's more of an ARM based CPU? So more of an SOC a la AWS graviton or Apple Silicon than a pure GPU?

There's two separate chip announcements here. One is a ML accelerator (Maia). The other is an ARM CPU (Cobalt).

Ah, my bad, thanks for pointing that out.
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