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I visited over 120 EV chargers: why so many were broken

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Re: I visited over 120 EV chargers: why so many were broken

#81

Post by tw04 »

Non-paywall link: https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/i-visited-over-120...

The single biggest issue with the “open” charging network at this point, in my opinion, is that it’s made up of so many different hardware vendors. At a single EA site you may have 3 different manufacturers of hardware. If something breaks you’ve got three completely different architectures that likely have a different technician required to fix, and definitely different internal components. Then add on the software layer that needs to look identical to end users but is also unique per vendor.

Tesla on the other hand owns the stack end to end.

It would be like trying to build HN utilizing dell servers running Linux, hpe servers running windows, and Lenovo servers running FreeBSD all trying to look like a single standardized interface to the end user. The overhead and areas for issues are immense.

I understand why someone like EA doesn’t want to be single sourced but what they’re doing clearly isn’t working.

Re: I visited over 120 EV chargers: why so many were broken

#82

Post by acdha »

nathanaldensr wrote: post #44
xrd wrote: post #23

A few months back I had to go to Palm Beach for work. It was right when Miami was flooding. That's over two hours away. But, the Port Everglades, which is where the tankers unload, was flooded too, and even up in Palm Beach there was no gas. I drove in there with low fuel, thinking it wouldn't be an issue since I was so far north. But, then couldn't find gas at all the next day, and driving around and seeing tons of…

I guess, downvoted because you dared share an anecdote about how vulnerable EVs are in certain circumstances? It seems like people will have to relearn the hard way just why gasoline is probably the best energy storage medium ever invented.

You might have missed the first paragraph where they mentioned the gas shortages. We were in south Florida at the same time, and there were three distinct groups: people driving gas guzzling SUVs and trucks who were waiting in line for 4+ hours at the handful of stations which had any gas (some of the stations put up signs when they were out, but many did not hoping you’d buy something else since you were there), people who drove high-mileage cars appropriate for the area who were aware of but not worried about it until next week, and EV / plug-in hybrid drivers who were largely unaffected.

Yes, gas has moderately high energy density but there is no such thing as a global optimum. For example, if you’re concerned about energy usage or mechanical simplicity, diesel beats it; if you aren’t comfortable causing an environmental catastrophe, neither of those are great; etc. The Florida fuel shortage was caused by flooding which is becoming more common thanks to using gas, so past performance is not going to be entirely representative, either.

Re: I visited over 120 EV chargers: why so many were broken

#83

Post by veec_cas_tant »

snapetom wrote: post #66
ukd1 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try renting a Tesla next time; the network for charging is great, and I think I've only ever had one failure in years, and just moved stalls.

Thanks but no thanks. Nothing against Teslas, but the issue is that reality is far from the vision proposed by proponents of EVs including governments and entrepreneurs. EVs are not reliable for long journeys. Besides, I don't like vendor lock-in in my software, I don't like vendor lock-in for my cars.

> Nothing against Teslas, but the issue is that reality is far from the vision proposed by proponents of EVs including governments and entrepreneurs. EVs are not reliable for long journeys.

This really is not the case in my experience. I drive a different EV for personal use, but always Turo a Tesla when flying into a location and doing any significant travel. In every location I’ve been, absolutely zero issues even when traveling 500+ miles between cities. I can see why non-technical people wouldn’t want to do this, but it takes a negligible amount of time to plan a proper route.

> Besides, I don't like vendor lock-in in my software, I don't like vendor lock-in for my cars.

I don’t even know what this means - Tesla vehicles can charge at any CCS station or level 2 charger (home plug, not DC). Other brands will be rolling out Tesla charger support in early 2024. There is no vendor lock-in.

Re: I visited over 120 EV chargers: why so many were broken

#84

Post by jauntywundrkind »

zerbinxx wrote: post #41

fwiw there’s a ton of upcoming (and heavily debated/not yet implemented/understood) regulations around EV chargers that will absolutely nuke some of the shittier app-centric/not really functional charging systems that people rely on today. I’m not a Tesla fan per se, but it is remarkable how much better life is for Tesla owners vs. the huddled masses roaming the frozen wastes looking for a charger that can actually d…

The US's Federal Highway Administration announced rules National Electric Vehicle Infrastructure (NEVI) program. NEVI is being created under Biden's Build America, Buy America Act (enacted as part of Biden's Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act, 2021). It provides funding for states to build out, maintain, and monitor EV charging solutions, and sets up common standards required for chargers funded.

Chargers have to be remotely monitorable, offer public real time status, price, and historical uptime information, for each port. Chargers have to be Open Charge Point Protocol (OCPP) 1.6J or higher, (2.0.1 in 2025) and Open Charge Point Interface (OCPI) 2.2.1 roaming compliant by 2025. They must use 15118-3 and be dual -2 and -20 capable (the standard green phy transport, with Plug & Charge interface on that). DC charge ports must each provide at least 150kW and have to support 250-920V DC voltages. I believe there are also requirements around reliability & uptime, but I haven't found those yet.

I think most of this program is ultimately done through the states, with the federal government paying 80%. My hope is that there's a big enough pool of funding here to compel businesses to get compliant. I do think the standards here are such that compliant charging stations will offer a good experience to consumers! The public access data requirements also make me think consumers will have a much better time understanding what options they have available, and whether those options seem trustworthy!

Link dumps: https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2023/02/28/2023-03... https://afdc.energy.gov/laws/12744 https://www.edrv.io/guide/nevi-minimum-standards-for-ev-char...

Re: I visited over 120 EV chargers: why so many were broken

#85

Post by DarmokJalad1701 »

snapetom wrote: post #66
ukd1 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try renting a Tesla next time; the network for charging is great, and I think I've only ever had one failure in years, and just moved stalls.

Thanks but no thanks. Nothing against Teslas, but the issue is that reality is far from the vision proposed by proponents of EVs including governments and entrepreneurs. EVs are not reliable for long journeys. Besides, I don't like vendor lock-in in my software, I don't like vendor lock-in for my cars.

> Nothing against Teslas, but the issue is that reality is far from the vision proposed by proponents of EVs including governments and entrepreneurs. EVs are not reliable for long journeys.

The person you replied to gave you a counter example which you ignore for ... reasons? All of the five issues you cite are basically non-existent for superchargers. As another anecdote, I have made multiple 1000+mile trips using the Supercharger network with zero problems. The experience mirrors that of pretty much every other Tesla owner that I know.

Also, what vendor lock in? I can charge my car at any J1772 or CCS charger (if I wanted to), or at home from a 110V or 220V outlet. Tesla's charging system uses the CCS signalling standard, which is part of the reason other manufacturers are now going to use it as well.

Re: I visited over 120 EV chargers: why so many were broken

#86

Post by latchkey »

AnotherGoodName wrote: post #36
mayama wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is maintaining already installed chargers. Lot of chargers are either physically broken or rated for low charging rate because something inside is broken. And no one fixing it in months. Changing the connector won't fix the issue when chargers are not fixed for months on end.

The point is that you can use the well-maintained Tesla brand chargers with more cars.

What happens to those well-maintained chargers when more/all cars start using the Tesla standard for charging?

Re: I visited over 120 EV chargers: why so many were broken

#87

Post by snapetom »

DarmokJalad1701 wrote: post #85
snapetom wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks but no thanks. Nothing against Teslas, but the issue is that reality is far from the vision proposed by proponents of EVs including governments and entrepreneurs. EVs are not reliable for long journeys. Besides, I don't like vendor lock-in in my software, I don't like vendor lock-in for my cars.

> Nothing against Teslas, but the issue is that reality is far from the vision proposed by proponents of EVs including governments and entrepreneurs. EVs are not reliable for long journeys. The person you replied to gave you a counter example which you ignore for ... reasons? All of the five issues you cite are basically non-existent for superchargers. As another anecdote, I have made multiple 1000+mile trips using t…

The reasons are obvious - it's not always possible to rent a Tesla, and in fact, it's usually not. Teslas are expensive compared to other electrics. Rental companies, and the world, are diversifying from Teslas, as we should.

This cultish devotion to Tesla is baffling but not surprising.

Re: I visited over 120 EV chargers: why so many were broken

#88

Post by parineum »

tw04 wrote: post #77
parineum wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem really is the companies. EA essentially rushed their product out the door knowingly with substandard (both in quality and actual standardization) that's led to their issues. They are simply not built to last and their bespokeness leads them to be difficult to repair. This isn't a case of oversimplifying, especially considering we can look across the street at a company who is doing exactly what we're aski…

You do realize EA isn’t making their own chargers, and sources their chargers from multiple vendors, right? https://media.electrifyamerica.com/en-us/releases/21 > Reston, VA (April 17, 2018) – Electrify America announced today it has selected key charging equipment suppliers – ABB, BTC Power, Efacec and Signet – to jointly deploy its new ultra-fast electric vehicle (EV) charging systems throughout the United States.

Yes, that's _exactly_ the issue. When they need to service a station, they need just the right parts. That's also from 2018. There a lot of chargers built before then. I read an article not too long ago where the new CEO was explaining that the reliability issue is, essentially, they rushed to get the first generations of chargers out so fast that they had to source parts from everywhere and they weren't all well tested and there are a lot of different types.

The result is that each station is basically bespoke and they have to find just the right replacement parts to fix a broken station. The result is that you have to send a technician out to find the broken part and then wait to get a replacement instead of the technician having replacement parts on hand (because there are too many that it might be).

That's why they are ripping out old stations and replacing them with new ones.

Re: I visited over 120 EV chargers: why so many were broken

#89

Post by marssaxman »

chroma wrote: post #58
taylodl wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This gets at the core as to why I've not (yet) bought an EV - it's absolutely insane that my car purchase dictates the people I have to associate with for refueling. As you point out - I would never buy a car having the stipulation I could only refuel at Chevron stations. I'll stick with my dino juice so long as Tesla is the only viable option available for recharging. I'd think about getting an EV for a local commut…

You can charge Teslas at other charging stations. It’s just that other chargers are inconvenient and unreliable. You usually need an adapter. You have to pull out a credit card and maybe install an app on your phone. With the Tesla chargers you just plug in and everything’s billed automatically. Also Tesla’s navigation automatically adds charging stops for superchargers. You don’t have to do much thinking. Just drive…

I cannot imagine having to install an app just to use a car charger. What a nuisance!

Re: I visited over 120 EV chargers: why so many were broken

#90

Post by david422 »

Symbiote wrote: post #79
david422 wrote: post #55

I have an electric vehicle that I charge in my garage. One day that charger broke and I had to charge at other locations for several weeks. There are very few fast chargers in my area. When they were not in use, some were broken. This leaves a pretty big dilemma: My car is low on juice, where do I go? By the time I actually get to an unused charger, it might be taken, or it might be broken. As long as it's not broken…

If it's in your garage, can't you just plug it in to a normal outlet?

Only if I had a working charger, yes. The piece between the wall outlet and the car was what was broken.
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