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Amazon is blocking promotions of employees who don't comply with RTO policy

businessinsider.com

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Re: Amazon is blocking promotions of employees who don't comply with RTO policy

#71

Post by aathromzn »

Amazon employee here, currently sitting in an office that is overcrowded, smells bad, and is too cramped to get any work done without distractions.

The phone rooms are always taken, usually have broken lights or trash on the floor/desk.

There’s absolutely no perks. The office cafe is expensive and awful food quality. My team wanted to have a holiday dinner and was told the company won’t pay for it, we have to pay out of pocket. There’s no budget for things like after-work events. Want to get drinks after work with your team? No budget for it.

We’re forced to sit in agile desks that nobody likes. You aren’t allowed to customize your desk is any way. You aren’t allowed to leave anything overnight on your desk, even if you’re going to use the same desk the next day.

The _only_ perk we have is that you are allowed to get one free coffee per day from the onsite barista, and even that they have tried to get rid of multiple times.

I used to work at a company that had a hybrid workforce and it had no issue getting people to come into the office by incentivizing people with basic stuff like a nice office or company-sponsored events.

Amazon is all stick, no carrot and it’s honestly embarrassing that a company this big could be so inept at something other companies figured out decades ago. Either that, or they aren’t even trying. I don’t know which is worse.

Re: Amazon is blocking promotions of employees who don't comply with RTO policy

#72

Post by danaris »

tash9 wrote: post #58
ryandrake wrote: post #4

Unfortunately, Amazon tends to be the "Employee Relations Bad Ideas Incubator" for the rest of the tech industry, at least BigTech. Fully expect other companies to copycat this.

My hot take: this is actually really good (and would be fantastic if all the big tech followed suit). Why? Imagine a world where big tech was cool with remote workers. They would be able to out-pay and acquire all the best talent, everywhere. With this self-imposed restriction, this leaves a big pool of high end talent able to be recruited by smaller start-ups who ordinarily wouldn't be able to compete on comp, benef…

> Why? Imagine a world where big tech was cool with remote workers. They would be able to out-pay and acquire all the best talent, everywhere.

Assuming this is true (which I think is very much in doubt), then it indicates there is a much bigger systemic problem that needs to be dealt with: namely, big tech functioning as essentially the landlords of the Internet and skimming profit off of everything that happens there.

No one sector of the economy should have this much influence. Certainly no group this small of companies this large should have this much power over anything.

Any time you find yourself saying, "Well, yes; this change should make life better for tens (or hundreds) of millions of people, but if we make it, this group of people over here will be able to take advantage of it to enrich themselves at everyone else's expense," I strongly recommend taking a look at that group of people over there and considering whether they should have that ability, and if not, how you might be able to change that. (And if so, why, exactly, you think anyone should have that ability.)

Re: Amazon is blocking promotions of employees who don't comply with RTO policy

#73

Post by Ironchefpython »

deadeye wrote: post #60
bugglebeetle wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, that’s why NBA players have them. Because they can’t compete on skill.

I suppose that's a union by name. But for the millions of people in a real union, it isn't recognizable as one. Most unions function to keep an established order where seniority matters more than capability and performance. Besides sports unions, actors guilds, and other small examples, unions exist to provide a framework for collectivising unskilled labor into a unit of power, where individually they have none.

Yeah, you handwave some of the most visible and effective unions in the United States (SAG-AFTRA, WGA), you're also ignoring education unions, healthcare unions, and many other careers where pay is not just about seniority, but also education, certification, specialization, and other factors.

Even unions in industries with legitimately undifferentiated labor will have shift differentials built into their contracts.

Re: Amazon is blocking promotions of employees who don't comply with RTO policy

#74

Post by Propelloni »

happytoexplain wrote: post #27
CSMastermind wrote: post #6

At the end of the day the counter to this is starting and building companies with remote work forces. If remote work truly is equal to or superior to in office work then you should be able to out compete in the long term using this competitive advantage.

>If remote work truly is equal to or superior to in office work then you should be able to out compete in the long term using this competitive advantage. This is an oversimplification in three different ways: 1. One can be a proponent of remote work without claiming that it is "equal to or superior to in office work". Remote work is better for a subset of people and a subset of jobs. In-office work is better for a su…

While I agree in the macro perspective, the micro perspective shows a different picture. There is no need for a company to be all-in in one way or the other, but smaller units, eg. teams, should coordinate when they are remote and when on-site. Like a senior dev once told my young and unexperienced self: "If one is remote, we are all remote". Meetings with 3 people at a table and 3 remote are miserable. You are better off being completely remote, even if this is worse than all on-site. I have yet to see a remote meeting that offers the same bandwidth as a face-to-face on-site meeting.

That being said, Amazon is stupid for punishing people for WFH.

Re: Amazon is blocking promotions of employees who don't comply with RTO policy

#75

Post by jmopp »

deadeye wrote: post #60
bugglebeetle wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, that’s why NBA players have them. Because they can’t compete on skill.

I suppose that's a union by name. But for the millions of people in a real union, it isn't recognizable as one. Most unions function to keep an established order where seniority matters more than capability and performance. Besides sports unions, actors guilds, and other small examples, unions exist to provide a framework for collectivising unskilled labor into a unit of power, where individually they have none.

I would put a hypothetical software engineer's union in the same category as a sports union/actor's guild. Just as an actor has brand recognition and can leverage this or start their own productions, so can a skilled software engineer start their own company/be recognised in their craft. And beyond that, can you imagine what would happen if software engineers decided to strike? It has the potential to have a far greater impact than pretty much any other industrial action. If factory workers down tools for a week, production is delayed. If Google SREs down tools for a week, it might break the internet.

Re: Amazon is blocking promotions of employees who don't comply with RTO policy

#76

Post by danaris »

darth_avocado wrote: post #5

Amazon is infamous for treating employees poorly. The label “PIP factory” started with Amazon. Yet, thousands of people flock to them for jobs. You can’t really blame Amazon at this point, they’ll use all the leverage they have because they know they can.

Speak for yourself. I can blame Amazon all the live long day.

Having absurd amounts of money and power, such that you can, to a large extent, do what you please doesn't absolve you from considering ethics and being kind. Quite the reverse, in my book. "With great power comes great responsibility" is cliché because it's true.

Every one of the managers and executives at Amazon who make these decisions, sign off on them, and enforce them, while drawing six (or more) figure salaries and, in many cases, working from home themselves are culpable for this, and I can, will, and should blame them for their hypocrisy, lack of empathy, and refusal to treat their employees as human beings equal to themselves.

Re: Amazon is blocking promotions of employees who don't comply with RTO policy

#77

Post by zactato »

gustavus wrote: post #26
zactato wrote: post #21

I know that the common perspective on HN is that remote work is good. Certainly, as a senior engineer and parent I appreciate the flexibility that remote work provides. However I think there’s a huge problem that’s silently growing. New engineers are falling behind. We’re growing a generation that isn’t developing some critical social skills. They’re not learning how to effectively learn from their peers. Maybe this…

> but I do know that colocated teams have a better culture and perform better. Citation needed. I work on a remote team, we see each other once every other month or so, and we get along great. It's one of the best teams I've ever worked with. I don't know what this "culture" companies keep trying to foster is, I'm not building a civilization, I'm not trying to "change the world" I'm showing up to do my job and get pa…

The team's I'm talking about don't meet in person that often. Once or twice per year. Every month feels like a good cadence to develop and maintain good relationships.

I should push for more frequent meet ups. Given how spread out people are this is certainly difficult.

Re: Amazon is blocking promotions of employees who don't comply with RTO policy

#79

Post by herbstein »

CSMastermind wrote: post #6

At the end of the day the counter to this is starting and building companies with remote work forces. If remote work truly is equal to or superior to in office work then you should be able to out compete in the long term using this competitive advantage.

> At the end of the day the counter to this is starting and building companies with remote work forces.

You'd think so. CrowdStrike, a self-proclaimed remote-first company, instituted a return-to-office policy earlier this year. Despite never requiring office presence before the pandemic. They still have blog posts like [1] on their website.

[1]: https://www.crowdstrike.com/blog/the-perks-of-remote-work/

Re: Amazon is blocking promotions of employees who don't comply with RTO policy

#80

Post by joeframbach »

darth_avocado wrote: post #64
no_wizard wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The flip side is their stock options are generous, they have (had?) generous hiring bonuses and their salary was good enough, and you got a top 10 business on your resume. Then, there is always a chance you land on a team that isn't dysfunctional at least for a couple years and you learn a ton. Amazon allows you to learn in abundance when you work on a functional team. Eventually, the system eats you alive, or you mo…

Amazon doesn’t do options, only RSUs. Their vest cycle is back loaded to 5/15/35/45. Meaning you only get your money if you survive the pip factory for more than 3 years. Which from my personal experience, is a tall ask.

The 401k match also has a 3-year vesting period.
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