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Amazon is blocking promotions of employees who don't comply with RTO policy

businessinsider.com

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Re: Amazon is blocking promotions of employees who don't comply with RTO policy

#61

Post by dhg72 »

zactato wrote: post #21

I know that the common perspective on HN is that remote work is good. Certainly, as a senior engineer and parent I appreciate the flexibility that remote work provides. However I think there’s a huge problem that’s silently growing. New engineers are falling behind. We’re growing a generation that isn’t developing some critical social skills. They’re not learning how to effectively learn from their peers. Maybe this…

Absolutely agreed. Some junior devs will always struggle, but I've seen FAR more struggling since remote work started. My current junior ICs are significantly worse at problem solving and lack significant context that they would easily get by sitting near more experienced engineers.

Heck, most of what made me a good engineer was that I started my career with my desk right next to a stellar senior dev. Watching him work taught me so much.

Re: Amazon is blocking promotions of employees who don't comply with RTO policy

#62

Post by deadeye »

Scarblac wrote: post #52
deadeye wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions are for people who can't compete on skill (or no longer wish to). I'm not saying they are a bad thing necessarily, but they don't make sense in competitive markets.

Developers don't really compete on skill much. Most importantly because companies have no good way of judging skill of developers. And also because, in most companies writing business software, good enough is good enough.

That is the exact opposite of my experience.

Re: Amazon is blocking promotions of employees who don't comply with RTO policy

#63

Post by deadeye »

ako wrote: post #53
deadeye wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions are for people who can't compete on skill (or no longer wish to). I'm not saying they are a bad thing necessarily, but they don't make sense in competitive markets.

There are many situations where employers are not interested in skills, they’re just looking to fill a position with the cheapest (licensed) person. There’s very little ROI in upgrading your skills in this situation.

I think we're saying the same thing. If that's what employers do then employees can't compete on skill.

Re: Amazon is blocking promotions of employees who don't comply with RTO policy

#64

Post by darth_avocado »

no_wizard wrote: post #37
darth_avocado wrote: post #5

Amazon is infamous for treating employees poorly. The label “PIP factory” started with Amazon. Yet, thousands of people flock to them for jobs. You can’t really blame Amazon at this point, they’ll use all the leverage they have because they know they can.

The flip side is their stock options are generous, they have (had?) generous hiring bonuses and their salary was good enough, and you got a top 10 business on your resume. Then, there is always a chance you land on a team that isn't dysfunctional at least for a couple years and you learn a ton. Amazon allows you to learn in abundance when you work on a functional team. Eventually, the system eats you alive, or you mo…

Amazon doesn’t do options, only RSUs. Their vest cycle is back loaded to 5/15/35/45. Meaning you only get your money if you survive the pip factory for more than 3 years. Which from my personal experience, is a tall ask.

Re: Amazon is blocking promotions of employees who don't comply with RTO policy

#65

Post by fragmede »

deadeye wrote: post #41
QwertyPi wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If remote work truly is equal to or superior to in office work then you should be able to out compete in the long term using this competitive advantage. Or they'll just buy you out. Competitive advantage doesn't work too well when your competitors have large moats of cash that you don't have access to. Honestly, people just need to organize unions. That's the only effective counter to policy like this.

Unions are for people who can't compete on skill (or no longer wish to). I'm not saying they are a bad thing necessarily, but they don't make sense in competitive markets.

Or for people that want better for themselves and their coworkers.

Listen, I know as SWEs, we're supposed to reject unions because we're paid so well, and listening to a lifetime of anti-union propaganda that leads to hilarious conclusions like the above. But reading some of the other threads complaining about work conditions that it sounds like a majority would like to avoid, not to mention some of the horror stories out of, eg, video game development studios, getting people to understand that, no, a union could be useful is, for some reason, an unhill battle. Wouldn't it be great if we didn't have to try and do deep work in an open office floor plan? if there were more conference rooms? If RTO wasn't a thing? If there was no deathmarch to make the upcoming release?

Because people, including those that can compete on skill, could still band together and say "we're not putting up with open office floor plans".

Re: Amazon is blocking promotions of employees who don't comply with RTO policy

#66

Post by buggeryorkshire »

nicole_express wrote: post #9

Refusing to promote? I had to leave my employer entirely because I didn't want to work from an office where none of my team was.

Yeah. I quit as after WFH 200 miles away from my office for 3 years after COVID lockdown I was expected to come in 3 days a week. They were perfectly happy with me working from another office 100 miles away - our call centre.

What exact benefits growth or knowledge wise do I get from there?

Re: Amazon is blocking promotions of employees who don't comply with RTO policy

#67

Post by potatopatch »

eschneider wrote: post #2

I suppose that's Amazon's prerogative, but wow, they're really hanging out the "please recruit from our employee base" sign. I mean, if you were hiring, you'd be well advised to try and poach folks from Amazon right now.

Everything I've heard about Amazon makes it sound like the perfect place to hire from if you want top talent that is a little burned out at the start.. They seem designed to be a short term exploitation firm.

Re: Amazon is blocking promotions of employees who don't comply with RTO policy

#68

Post by gwright »

QwertyPi wrote: post #14
CSMastermind wrote: post #6

At the end of the day the counter to this is starting and building companies with remote work forces. If remote work truly is equal to or superior to in office work then you should be able to out compete in the long term using this competitive advantage.

> If remote work truly is equal to or superior to in office work then you should be able to out compete in the long term using this competitive advantage. Or they'll just buy you out. Competitive advantage doesn't work too well when your competitors have large moats of cash that you don't have access to. Honestly, people just need to organize unions. That's the only effective counter to policy like this.

> Honestly, people just need to organize unions. That's the only effective counter to policy like this.

This seems like a non-sequitur to me. You seem to be suggesting that unions magically understand the best way to organize each and every workplace and that every employer should be required to organize its efforts according to the wisdom of "the union".

How about each company runs its business as it sees fit and each person decides on their own who they want to work for or perhaps just work for themselves? Systems that work thrive, systems that don't work wither away. Build in some social support for people to be able to move to new jobs or create new jobs/companies with as little friction as possible. For example:

ensure that substantial changes to a work arrangement must have a notice/grace period (no unforeseeable changes) * make health insurance independent from your employer * reduce occupational licensing regulations and require states to accept licenses from other states * simplify and streamline the creation and overhead of small/all companies (incorporation, taxes, reporting, etc.) * allow employers and employees/contractors to define the relationship that works for them without the ambiguous and irregularly enforced employee/contractor distinction in the tax code

Re: Amazon is blocking promotions of employees who don't comply with RTO policy

#69

Post by thesuitonym »

acbullen wrote: post #17
nicole_express wrote: post #9

Refusing to promote? I had to leave my employer entirely because I didn't want to work from an office where none of my team was.

This is definitely a stressor in my current job. Fortunately I have a couple coworkers from before acquisition knocking around so there's at least some folks knocking around the office providing some social benefit, if not actual productivity boosts.

If you want social benefits, go to a bar. Work time is for working.

Re: Amazon is blocking promotions of employees who don't comply with RTO policy

#70

Post by thesuitonym »

teaearlgraycold wrote: post #40

I get a lot of downvotes on HN for being pro in-person and hating remote work. But I gotta say, if a large portion of your employees want something to make them happy and they can be productive that way, you are an asshole for forcing them to comply.

And certainly, Amazon is big enough that you can have a portion of people who work from home, while keeping large enough contingent of in-office people that they'll be happy with their watercooler time.
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