Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Amazon is blocking promotions of employees who don't comply with RTO policy

businessinsider.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 104 posts

Re: Amazon is blocking promotions of employees who don't comply with RTO policy

#21

Post by zactato »

I know that the common perspective on HN is that remote work is good. Certainly, as a senior engineer and parent I appreciate the flexibility that remote work provides.

However I think there’s a huge problem that’s silently growing. New engineers are falling behind. We’re growing a generation that isn’t developing some critical social skills. They’re not learning how to effectively learn from their peers. Maybe this is simply a set of skills they’ll develop later, but I worry about their future careers. I don’t know the reasons that these big company’s are choosing to force RTO, but I do know that colocated teams have a better culture and perform better.

Re: Amazon is blocking promotions of employees who don't comply with RTO policy

#22

Post by whitten »

drcongo wrote: post #8

Someone should put together a handy list of all these companies with RTO policies, with metadata about which ones have abused it to force people to leave, and which ones have forced it on people hired into remote positions.

Maybe a recruiter could see the cost of maintaining such a website/database as a business advantage.

Re: Amazon is blocking promotions of employees who don't comply with RTO policy

#23

Post by [deleted] »

dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #10

It is very interesting to unfold the next chapter in this power struggle between employers and employees. So far one thing is clear: senior staff in general is tending towards WFH. There are exceptions of course but the tendency is clear. In my niche, on job boards the top-paid positions are all WFH. The reason is clear: if you really want to have the best people and keep them for long, you not only pay them well but…

[deleted]

Re: Amazon is blocking promotions of employees who don't comply with RTO policy

#24

Post by maerF0x0 »

QwertyPi wrote: post #14
CSMastermind wrote: post #6

At the end of the day the counter to this is starting and building companies with remote work forces. If remote work truly is equal to or superior to in office work then you should be able to out compete in the long term using this competitive advantage.

> If remote work truly is equal to or superior to in office work then you should be able to out compete in the long term using this competitive advantage. Or they'll just buy you out. Competitive advantage doesn't work too well when your competitors have large moats of cash that you don't have access to. Honestly, people just need to organize unions. That's the only effective counter to policy like this.

> they'll just buy you out

That would require you to sell. And if one is confident they can win in the marketplace then why sell to them when you can eventually flip the scenario and have them asking to be acquired?

Fully granted that in my experience, in the USA for the past long time, it's felt like Corporatism has made this scenario far less likely. But, perhaps that's more of a sign to start your company elsewhere. Perhaps America is no longer a good place to start a company.

Re: Amazon is blocking promotions of employees who don't comply with RTO policy

#26

Post by gustavus »

zactato wrote: post #21

I know that the common perspective on HN is that remote work is good. Certainly, as a senior engineer and parent I appreciate the flexibility that remote work provides. However I think there’s a huge problem that’s silently growing. New engineers are falling behind. We’re growing a generation that isn’t developing some critical social skills. They’re not learning how to effectively learn from their peers. Maybe this…

> but I do know that colocated teams have a better culture and perform better.

Citation needed. I work on a remote team, we see each other once every other month or so, and we get along great. It's one of the best teams I've ever worked with. I don't know what this "culture" companies keep trying to foster is, I'm not building a civilization, I'm not trying to "change the world" I'm showing up to do my job and get paid. I'll do my job to the best of my ability, I'll be considerate and polite and try to get along well with my coworkers. But at the end of the day I'd rather see my wife and kids than spend more time with my coworkers.

Re: Amazon is blocking promotions of employees who don't comply with RTO policy

#27

Post by happytoexplain »

CSMastermind wrote: post #6

At the end of the day the counter to this is starting and building companies with remote work forces. If remote work truly is equal to or superior to in office work then you should be able to out compete in the long term using this competitive advantage.

>If remote work truly is equal to or superior to in office work then you should be able to out compete in the long term using this competitive advantage.

This is an oversimplification in three different ways:

1. One can be a proponent of remote work without claiming that it is "equal to or superior to in office work". Remote work is better for a subset of people and a subset of jobs. In-office work is better for a subset of people and a subset of jobs. The most common fallacy is that we must go all-in on one or the other. Having multiple people in a company, even on the same team, at different points on the all-remote to no-remote scale does not have to cause the mutual hindrance that leadership portrays it as doing.

2. Remote work has value for mental health, societal health, and work-life balance, which are things that may, abstractly, in the long-run, make a company more competitive, but it's subjective. The point is, "business absolutism" is a fallacy (i.e. the idea that a business must do whatever makes it the most money with no qualifications to that statement).

3. Disregarding #1 and #2, even if remote work was superior by business-benefiting metrics, the successful rise of all-remote companies would not be a prerequisite of nor a sure-sign of that statement. You would need controlled experiments, which are impossible in the business world. You can never, by the laws of reality, have a reasonable sample size of real-world businesses that are identical in every way except for remote work and "success".

Re: Amazon is blocking promotions of employees who don't comply with RTO policy

#28

Post by fishtoaster »

QwertyPi wrote: post #14
CSMastermind wrote: post #6

At the end of the day the counter to this is starting and building companies with remote work forces. If remote work truly is equal to or superior to in office work then you should be able to out compete in the long term using this competitive advantage.

> If remote work truly is equal to or superior to in office work then you should be able to out compete in the long term using this competitive advantage. Or they'll just buy you out. Competitive advantage doesn't work too well when your competitors have large moats of cash that you don't have access to. Honestly, people just need to organize unions. That's the only effective counter to policy like this.

You say "buy out" like it's a bad thing. Presumably that's a huge win for you if you started (or have equity in) the company - and if not, you can just... not accept the buyout offer?

Re: Amazon is blocking promotions of employees who don't comply with RTO policy

#30

Post by hef19898 »

hamandcheese wrote: post #15
darth_avocado wrote: post #5

Amazon is infamous for treating employees poorly. The label “PIP factory” started with Amazon. Yet, thousands of people flock to them for jobs. You can’t really blame Amazon at this point, they’ll use all the leverage they have because they know they can.

At least in my circles, I only know people who have left Amazon. I've never met someone who went to Amazon mid career.

We don't know each other personally, but I fall in both groups. Don't regret it, and woupd do it again at the same point in my career. Because you learn more there in a year than you do in at least 5 elsewhere.
Post reply on HN