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.NET 8

devblogs.microsoft.com

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Re: .NET 8

#241

Post by DavidKarlas »

willsmith72 wrote: post #20

I'd love to hear from some .NET fanatics, how would you convince someone to use that ecosystem over another?

C# design team is ~5 talented well paid engineers who think how to improve language for past 20 years, every week and don’t let flawed features in and can spend years on how to add async/await, nullables, SpanT and many other features so whole language makes sense and is joy to use. And they have another ~20 engineers implementing features in Roslyn making sure performance of IDE and compiler is acceptable and bug ~free. Unfortunately not many languages can afford that…

Re: .NET 8

#242

Post by oaiey »

theshrike79 wrote: post #222
gettodachoppa wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> .NET has been held down by the image of its early days, but it has become a pure joy to work with recently People have been saying that for the past 4 years. As someone who's never used .NET but develops embedded apps for Linux, I had high hopes for it become the best story for crossplatform development, it still feels like the crossplatform is held by ductape. It's still Xamarin for mobile, Avalonia (a 1-man proje…

This is not a .NET problem. There really isn't a simple way to do cross platform (Windows/Linux/macOS) UIs with any language. The least bad option is to make it a web page, maybe wrap it with Electron.

Yeah, but MAUI is basically react native, Blazor on Maui basically Cordova/electron (just with much better plugin support) and Maui also had once some support for rendered control.

While I agree it is hard, there is no one who could rule this space better than .NET if they just would like.

Problem is: this is developer division funding which is not the Windows (which owns a UI stack) or office division (react native actually). DevDiv previous UI toolkits WPF was loved but then abondon because of the duplicity of UI toolkits in Microsoft.

Re: .NET 8

#243

Post by collaborative »

pdntspa wrote: post #115
collaborative wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Java and Python have a few. I still don't get how electron got so popular. It's always been pretty straightforward to ship an app with a self-contained Java runtime, much the same as electron ships with v8. Java GUIs have always been worse than c++ ones, but still.. much better than electron I'd say

pySide6 has been a dream for me, it 'just works' and QT is quite robust. I am currently fucking with Java via GraalVM, and packaging my app for distribution has been absolute hell: jlink throws errors. jpackage somehow gets stuck in an infinite loop that generates a directory tree of seemingly infinite depth (so deep that even Explorer can't delete it) GraalVM native-image can't complete and throws all sorts of weird…

Not sure if it suits your use case, but the best I have experienced is jDeploy

Re: .NET 8

#244

Post by Volrath89 »

ryanjshaw wrote: post #54
klauserc wrote: post #6

Apart from the very welcome QoL features in C# 12 (collection literals, primary constructors for ordinary classes), the "Aspire" announcement is very interesting. Haven't decided yet if its a good thing or too much "magic".

Kind of annoyed - I just spent the past week getting familiar with Dapr, and now there's Aspire which seems to have similar goals and is also funded by Microsoft: the Azure CTO even wrote the introduction to the Dapr for .NET Developers book! And of course the Aspire announcement makes no mention of Dapr - I wonder if the teams have even spoken to each other!

Is Aspire/Dapr comparable to something like ABP Framework?

Or are they completely different things?

Re: .NET 8

#245

Post by collaborative »

codeTired wrote: post #147

As full stack .net dev, I am so disappointed every “who is hiring” thread. I would be game to join a trendier group of like minded devs but if you get one .net posting you are lucky, and it’s most likely rockstar. :(

There are plenty of traditional corpos hiring for .net roles but not many startups choose it as their stack

Re: .NET 8

#246

Post by oaiey »

desi_ninja wrote: post #146
gettodachoppa wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> .NET has been held down by the image of its early days, but it has become a pure joy to work with recently People have been saying that for the past 4 years. As someone who's never used .NET but develops embedded apps for Linux, I had high hopes for it become the best story for crossplatform development, it still feels like the crossplatform is held by ductape. It's still Xamarin for mobile, Avalonia (a 1-man proje…

MAUI is built using WinUI. It is same platform.

Maui is built on top of winui, Android ui and iOS UI. It just looks like WPF, which again influenced winui

Re: .NET 8

#247

Post by gettodachoppa »

theshrike79 wrote: post #222
gettodachoppa wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> .NET has been held down by the image of its early days, but it has become a pure joy to work with recently People have been saying that for the past 4 years. As someone who's never used .NET but develops embedded apps for Linux, I had high hopes for it become the best story for crossplatform development, it still feels like the crossplatform is held by ductape. It's still Xamarin for mobile, Avalonia (a 1-man proje…

This is not a .NET problem. There really isn't a simple way to do cross platform (Windows/Linux/macOS) UIs with any language. The least bad option is to make it a web page, maybe wrap it with Electron.

It doesn't need to be 100% perfect. Just 99%. Don't let perfect be the enemy of great.

I write Qt GUIs for Linux+Windows, and no Windows user can tell it's not "native" (not that there's a native Windows look anymore, what with MS being schizophrenic about scrapping the UI framework and starting a new one everytime a new PM wants attention, only the classic widget look associated with Windows is still the 2000/XP/7 is recognizable).

Qt apps are super performant, and write once, run anywhere for 99% of GUIs anyone wants to create.

OSX users might be the only one that complain, but they're a tiny minority of users, and it's good enough in most cases, with fantastic performance to shut up the doubters.

Electron apps are hideous, bloated, and slow, relative to the Qt apps I write. I'm only held back by C++ being a shitty archaic language/ecosystem, and if .NET offered an alternative I'd jump ship immediately, that's why I'm so disappointed it's an afterthought.

P.S. Languages designed for "hypertext markup" are not meant to create rich UIs, and can never compete with a native framework. Everything in the JS world to create rich applications is a hack and you can see it in the code and the endless churn of frameworks. When I write something like QML, the intent is clear. When I look at the JS UI frameworks people are hacking hideous HTML templates and conditional logic, list iteration, etc in HTML templates. And nearly every JS UI framework project is written by 1-2 intermediate devs with comparatively little API design talent, who inevitably break backwards compatibility within a year or two.

Re: .NET 8

#248

Post by pjmlp »

kaba0 wrote: post #208
pjmlp wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a fanatic, as I use other stacks as well, however a big fan boy from Anders Hejlsberg work, and naturally the team that picked that up. .NET and Java ecosystems are the only ones with tooling and developer experience that is somehow comparable to the Xerox PARC world. Note for the pedantic, comparable, not exactly the same. Given the way .NET was born, there is a kind of yin/yang with both platforms. Some scenari…

What did you not like about JSF? I mean, the whole EE part had its fair share of flaws, but I think the JSF model was way ahead of its time, and I still think that (model-wise, not necessarily implementation-wise) it is just unbeatably productive.

View Model Lifecycle as starters, the amount of HTML, CSS and JavaScript boilerplate code that got generated leading to lenghty debugging sessions, and the way most JSF frameworks were basically incompatible with each other.

Example, using RichFaces, and then trying to use something from PrimeFaces, IceFaces, or something else Faces, was always open to surprises mixing their lifecycle expectations.

I was involved with a RichFaces based JSF framework, during three years, and afterwards going back to something like plain JSP and tag libraries felt quite refreshing.

Re: .NET 8

#249

Post by pjmlp »

Semaphor wrote: post #207
pjmlp wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, .NET Framework is the Python 2 of the .NET world, with all the references that it entails. Still too many enterprise products stuck in the old ways.

Unlike with python, some things simply can't be ported, though. I maintain a webforms page, the only upgrade path would be a full rewrite

Python 2 => 3 also has the issue that some things don't exist in Python 3, or are done in incompatible ways.

As I mentioned a few times, I have been involved in projects were that full rewrite happened to be .NET Framework => Java, which shows how the customers were mad at what was left behind.

Although there is some irony in that, as Java's Python 2 problem is the transition into Java 9.

Re: .NET 8

#250

Post by oaiey »

terandle wrote: post #238
Metasyntactic wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi there, C# Lang Designer here. :) We're always thinking about the bloat concern when it comes to language development. However, our philosophy on it is that bloat primarily comes when you add replacement systems that are expected to supersede the previous mechanisms, not compliment them. So we try to do the former sparingly . In the history of C# there are very few times we've actually done this, and we do view tho…

The new array literals seem to supersede some previous syntaxes like new[] { 1, 2, 3 } goes to [1, 2, 3] in a lot of cases. But overall they are a _great_ addition to the language playing around with them now so bravo. Still not really sure how I feel about class primary constructors on the other hand, will give them some time to marinate.

Share the exactly same worries. Let us see.
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