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Why haven't we cured cancer yet?

sciencebasedmedicine.org

161–167 of 167 posts

Re: Why haven't we cured cancer yet?

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This drug went from being a 'candidate' molecule to having gold standard data and FDA approval in 5 years. Five years! I know that's fast by industry standards. Why, it's only one more year than it took us to win World War II. Also, for a full measure of the OODA loop, you should start counting from when the target was discovered. The way you conceptualise a cancer patient's plight is also insulting and grotesque. Th…

Honest question: would you be less bitter about your grandfathers' death if they had been given some unproven, entirely experimental risky drug...and then died immediately after because of said drug? How would you feel about your grandparents being used as a few more numbers to confirm that a drug is not, in fact, effective or safe in treating prostate cancer?

Honest question: would you be less bitter about your grandfathers' death if they had been given some unproven, entirely experimental risky drug...and then died immediately after because of said drug?

I'd feel much better about it. Because I know that they'd have been killed in the front line by a shell - not in the Paris latrines by cholera.

My father's father fought in the Battle of the Bulge. They weren't pussies back then, you know.

How would you feel about your grandparents being used as a few more numbers to confirm that a drug is not, in fact, effective or safe in treating prostate cancer?

Typically when you're trying to "confirm" something it means you think you know it anyway. No, I don't think any p-value is worth dying for.

Your turn. Honest question: here's a story by a UK woman who jumped for joy to learn her cancer had spread, because it meant she could get into a trial:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/9193018/Back-to-work-after...

How do you feel about this situation? Is it by any chance a little too "Tuskegee" for your sensitive ethical vibrissae?

Re: Why haven't we cured cancer yet?

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Identifying the protein targets could be a lifetime's work. Identifying drug interactors is another big project, verifying efficacy takes time, synthesis takes time, verifying purity, determining best method of delivery to the patient, half life, dosage, interactions with other drugs, on and on and on. It all takes time. Look, I'm not an idiot. I know it takes 10-20 years to develop a drug. But I also know that many…

Well first, I don't think you're an idiot. I haven't downvoted a single one of your comments because I think they are all constructive and thought-provoking...even if I don't agree with many of your points. =) Regarding Aspirin, Penicillin, et al , many of those drugs are the low hanging fruit in pharmacology. We've already plundered many of the easy molecules. I would contest that many of the present-day pharmaceuti…

It's because the drugs themselves prove ineffective, unsafe or both.

Statements like this prove the systemic abuse of statistics that is pharma regulation. You've - quite unconsciously, no doubt - reversed the definition of proof, asserting that failure to prove a positive is equivalent to proving a negative.

Of course you don't believe this. But your institutional jargon automatically generates the lie. Orwell had a point.

Today's viable drug is a survivor in a winnowing process in which any of a thousand screwups - often mere failures of trial design - can kill it. Moreover, while some of these are corporate errors (not the drug's fault), many of the design failures are institutional and uncorrectable.

For instance, testing cancer drugs of the "magic bullet" type against late-stage tumors is utterly ridiculous, as these genetic Cthulhus are the last place anything targeted is likely to work on. But this is the only place our testing paradigm is viable. The drunk looks under the lamppost for his keys, again and again.

Advanced genotyping might reveal that a certain tumor has five pathways for evading apoptosis. Five different molecules are needed to shut them all down. In an individual trial, each molecule fails. It thus - to use your language - "proves ineffective."

We are past the days that you can find compounds that mold poops out, and use it to cure 90% of humanity's ailments.

It's a commonplace assertion that most of these older compounds (certainly aspirin and penicillin) would fail an early toxicity screen and never get close to a mouse, let alone a patient.

I have no idea whether this is true. But if it is, Western medicine is objectively in the same position as NASA: it can no longer do the things it did 40 years ago. Welcome to Trantor.

Re: Why haven't we cured cancer yet?

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

? > There is a common if implicit belief that systematic methods will allow the dull, or worse the dishonest, to advance the frontiers of knowledge. Ok, I'm taken aback by that - people actually think that people who are dull and dishonest become scientists? I mean I can understand that they become - frauds -. But scientists? Well maybe not in my country, but perhaps where you live. Anyway thats just plain daft - the…

Ok, I'm taken aback by that - people actually think that people who are dull and dishonest become scientists? I mean I can understand that they become - frauds -. But scientists? Well maybe not in my country, but perhaps where you live. I'm afraid the problem is that my standards of both intelligence and honesty are much higher than yours. Our society has far too many scientists churning out what Kuhn called "normal…

> I'm afraid...

Oh I sincerely doubt that...

Re: Why haven't we cured cancer yet?

#164
post #147
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to be a heretic and argue that the problem with cancer research is institutional, not biological. The biological problem is clearly very hard, but the institutional problem is impossible. You might or might not be familiar with the term "OODA loop," originally developed by fighter pilots: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop If the war on cancer was a dogfight, you'd need an order from the President every…

You are ranting about your own confabulated view of cancer research. Crizotinib is a case in point. It is a small molecule that works very well for lung cancer, but only if a patient's cancer has a particular chromosomal fusion. This drug went from being a 'candidate' molecule to having gold standard data and FDA approval in 5 years. No fantasies about billionaires required. The way you conceptualise a cancer patient…

My mother died of a malignant brain tumor at 55, 4 years ago.

Turns out, when your life expectancy is less than a year, you are willing to try a lot of things.

You know what's better than going to your granddaughter's wedding next month? Living long enough to see your granddaughters born.

My mother applied for every experimental drug treatment available. She got accepted into 1 out of 6. Her doctor told her it's standard practice for drug companies to deny access to experimental drugs if they believe the success rate is going to be low, because it makes their success rate look lower.

Think about that for a second.

The drug had already passed the safety trials, i.e. they knew it wouldn't kill her, but they weren't sure whether it would help her. The company thought there was a low, but not non-zero chance the treatment would work, and they denied it.

My mother knew she was going to die, she was grasping at straws for a cure. Trying new treatments isn't sacrifice.

The sacrifice is not doing and learning everything you can. The sacrifice is throwing away fully informed and willing test subjects, and having a bureaucracy that prevents people from trying to save their own lives.

Re: Why haven't we cured cancer yet?

#165
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are ranting about your own confabulated view of cancer research. Crizotinib is a case in point. It is a small molecule that works very well for lung cancer, but only if a patient's cancer has a particular chromosomal fusion. This drug went from being a 'candidate' molecule to having gold standard data and FDA approval in 5 years. No fantasies about billionaires required. The way you conceptualise a cancer patient…

My mother died of a malignant brain tumor at 55, 4 years ago. Turns out, when your life expectancy is less than a year, you are willing to try a lot of things. You know what's better than going to your granddaughter's wedding next month? Living long enough to see your granddaughters born. My mother applied for every experimental drug treatment available. She got accepted into 1 out of 6. Her doctor told her it's stan…

I'm sorry to hear that your mother did not get access to a treatment that she wanted to receive. Clinical trials cherry pick the patients that they think will do the best. This is a dubious practice at best, but it is what they do, and they do it because as you point out, most new treatments have only an incremental benefit that is easily obscured.

Re: Why haven't we cured cancer yet?

#166
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are ranting about your own confabulated view of cancer research. Crizotinib is a case in point. It is a small molecule that works very well for lung cancer, but only if a patient's cancer has a particular chromosomal fusion. This drug went from being a 'candidate' molecule to having gold standard data and FDA approval in 5 years. No fantasies about billionaires required. The way you conceptualise a cancer patient…

This drug went from being a 'candidate' molecule to having gold standard data and FDA approval in 5 years. Five years! I know that's fast by industry standards. Why, it's only one more year than it took us to win World War II. Also, for a full measure of the OODA loop, you should start counting from when the target was discovered. The way you conceptualise a cancer patient's plight is also insulting and grotesque. Th…

Absent from your entire discourse, is any notion of a good death. I've looked after people who wanted to try everything, fly anywhere, even when they weren't strong enough to sit up in bed. They didn't die well.

It has never been shown that treating cancer patients up until the time of death makes any difference to either quality of life or survival (http://www.biomedcentral.com/1472-684X/10/14). Sometimes there is a tyranny about the biology of cancer that is difficult to overcome even with agents that are known to be effective, not even when you have run out of all drugs completely.

You might scoff at the notion of a good death. But then there is this trial (http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1000678). This was a trial which compared early palliative care with late palliative care involvement for patients with metastatic lung cancer. They were otherwise treated with standard therapy/clinical trials/whatever was available. Astonishingly, those patients that received early palliative care had less treatment overall and lived nearly 3 months longer - by getting less treatment, and focusing on quality of life. If there was a new drug that helped people with lung cancer live 3 months longer, it would be revolutionary.

On the basis of this evidence and my personal experience, I believe there is potential harm in taking the attitude of wanting to try everything by default. This attitude may be right for some people, but for others, it may shorten their lives for no benefit and leave them and their families unprepared for the inevitable end.

There is no escape from the notion that the latest drug might just turn everything around. It is certainly true that when a drug like this comes along, there will be some people who miss out and die because they or their doctors didn't try hard enough. But how much potential harm can you justify because of this tiny, tiny risk?

Re: Why haven't we cured cancer yet?

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question: would you be less bitter about your grandfathers' death if they had been given some unproven, entirely experimental risky drug...and then died immediately after because of said drug? How would you feel about your grandparents being used as a few more numbers to confirm that a drug is not, in fact, effective or safe in treating prostate cancer?

Honest question: would you be less bitter about your grandfathers' death if they had been given some unproven, entirely experimental risky drug...and then died immediately after because of said drug? I'd feel much better about it. Because I know that they'd have been killed in the front line by a shell - not in the Paris latrines by cholera. My father's father fought in the Battle of the Bulge. They weren't pussies b…

No need to get hostile. My girlfriend's mother died from a very aggressive cancer just last year - I'm well aware of the painful reality of both cancer and treatment.

Regarding my comment about confirmation, there are always points in any experiment where you basically know the outcome, but just need a few more datapoints to pass that magical p Of course that is a terribly cynical viewpoint. You could easily reword it to sound much more positive. But I think my original point still stands.

There are always going to cases like the woman's above - it is inevitable. You can't immediately clear everyone for every drug. Some drugs are only effective when the cancer has progressed to a certain point. But barring technical problems, there just simply isnt enough money to pay for everyone to have every experimental treatment.

Triage and thresholding is an unfortunate necessity.

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