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HTML First

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Re: HTML First

#201

Post by pault »

wheelerof4te wrote: post #184
jaapbadlands wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one is afraid of writing code, we're afraid of maintaining code, and solving tedious and repetitive problems that already have solutions. Frameworks abstract complexity, which in practical terms decreases the complexity I personally have to deal with, and shifts the complexity to the minds of a team of open-source developers who support the framework or library in parallel. Abstraction is exactly how we push the i…

"No one is afraid of writing code, we're afraid of maintaining code, and solving tedious and repetitive problems that already have solutions." Then, enjoy maintaining React apps once React inevitably bites the dust and ends up in the JS framework graveyard.

The chances of this happening before your project is obsolete are pretty slim.

Edit: it depends on what you mean by "bites the dust". If you mean "isn't cool anymore" then I'd say that's kind of irrelevant. If you mean "isn't supported anymore", I don't see that happening any time within the next decade at least. Rails isn't cool anymore but it's still supported and lots of people are still (more or less) happily using it at their day jobs. React is so widely used it'll be kept on life support long after it has been supplanted by something better, if and when that happens.

Re: HTML First

#202

Post by gardenhedge »

tonyennis wrote: post #98
gardenhedge wrote: post #88

This seems like it came from a newbie/inexperienced dev. > substantially widen the pool of people who can work on web software codebases This isn't a problem. There's already more people who can work on web software than there ever was. > A second goal of HTML First is to make it more enjoyable and seamless to build web software Subjective. If people enjoy it like this that is fine but these shouldn't be touted as pr…

Not newbie or inexperienced, have built & managed multiple large teams & been thinking about this for a long time https://x.com/tonyennis/status/1139071584935637000?s=20

There's a few reasons for the ratio mentioned in your tweet. Rapid industry growth in the past decade and the fact that junior devs are cheaper to have on a team. It's got nothing to do with writing a website in HTML vs React.

Re: HTML First

#203

Post by wheelerof4te »

tonyennis wrote: post #95

OP Here. This got more engagement than expected, some of the bits I've picked up in discussion: "Recommends skipping build step then mentions Tailwind": We use static-tailwind, a version with no build step, in development. "Recommends hyperscript, a new non-js syntax" - Agree this isn't perfect & would prefer something which uses js. Was going to use Alpine but also have found that to be quite brittle in production.…

Do you believe someone in the future will actually create a complex web application using pure HTML+CSS+Javascript/Typescript?

Is that even possible at this point?

Thanks.

Re: HTML First

#206

Post by ln_00 »

codeptualize wrote: post #89

This is fun in to theory and in simple examples, but show me a big project that applies this and how it made a difference. There are some bold objectives at the start that would be wonderful, but I’m a bit disappointed by the advice. I really don’t see how these would work in anything other than very basic scenarios, even less how they would achieve the objectives. I’m all for using the web platform to the max, and I…

Aem edge delivery service, Hey.com

Re: HTML First

#207

Post by codeptualize »

stanislavb wrote: post #198

For the sake of being precise - the “form_with” is not equivalent to the presented HTML. The form_with helper injects an additional hidden input element that makes sure that the form cannot be submitted “illegally”.

I think this is a great example of all the small details we take for granted in the tools we use, and we would miss without realising when following these tips.

Re: HTML First

#208

Post by avidphantasm »

codeptualize wrote: post #89

This is fun in to theory and in simple examples, but show me a big project that applies this and how it made a difference. There are some bold objectives at the start that would be wonderful, but I’m a bit disappointed by the advice. I really don’t see how these would work in anything other than very basic scenarios, even less how they would achieve the objectives. I’m all for using the web platform to the max, and I…

Even if this isn’t always practical for larger projects today, I would argue that this should “ultimately” be the goal—-at some point the “standard” browser runtime should be expressive enough to not require lots of tooling to make most apps.

Re: HTML First

#209

Post by codeptualize »

pech0rin wrote: post #196

I’m sorry but what? This is terrible advice. I have never understood the desire to keep the web “inclusive”. Is the web not already inclusive? Can someone not already build a website with simple html/css? The web has evolved and taken the place of desktop apps by and large. That is what SaaS has done. These websites are built to be fully functioning pieces of complex software. Using some tiny tools to markup html is…

This is a very good point. I would also look in different directions for inclusivity.

We now have Framer, Webflow and all the others, you don't have to write any code to make amazing websites.

Re: HTML First

#210

Post by josephg »

squidbeak wrote: post #173
xgb84j wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because in practice there is little value in making easier things easier. While 95% on the web are small projects, 95% of work is done on large projects. Many developers also dislike using many different frameworks, because that would require more learning. If you have to choose one technology it's better to use one where you can do everything. Not one where you can do 95% really fast, but 5% not at all. I personally…

Do you have any data to support that 95% claim? As big as FAANG and other huge development teams are, it seems to me it's still only the tip of the pyramid, with the overwhelming majority of people in the industry working full time on small or midsized projects. It'd be interesting to see some concrete info on it.

I suspect even at Google a lot more than 5% of effort goes into small to midsized projects. Bazel, ninja, protobuf, grpc, the API documentation website for Gmail, VP9, the Google transcode api, takeout, various corp network tools & services and so on.

The big projects are of course important. But even chrome needs a simple little website with a download link.

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