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Is this radical redesign of GIMP possible now?

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Re: Is this radical redesign of GIMP possible now?

#241

I'm surprised there's uncertainty about how Gimp should be redesigned. Just copy Photoshop! Select tools on the left, configure the current tool at the top, global options on the right. Affinity does this and nobody complains. Thanks to MacOS help search, we even already have the command search that this video proposes. And it has interaction hints too. Gimp isn't more complex than Photoshop. We don't need it to rein…

This still blows my mind a bit - yes literally they should just copy Photoshop because everyone knows how to use it. Menus are fine, any complex tool has lots of menus. I have been wishing for a photoshop-like GUI frontend for GIMP for 20 years. It's not even that far off. That sounds ungrateful, and it's not meant to be - I know this is just how it is, amazing stuff under the hood and janky interfaces I mean, linux…

> they should just copy Photoshop because everyone knows how to use it

except new users.

you're part of a self-selecting population.

Personally I think UI experimentation is awesome, because we might end up with an interface usable on modern hardware.

Re: Is this radical redesign of GIMP possible now?

#242

I'm surprised there's uncertainty about how Gimp should be redesigned. Just copy Photoshop! Select tools on the left, configure the current tool at the top, global options on the right. Affinity does this and nobody complains. Thanks to MacOS help search, we even already have the command search that this video proposes. And it has interaction hints too. Gimp isn't more complex than Photoshop. We don't need it to rein…

The thing is, Photoshop didn't win the "graphics wars" in the 90s by having a good interface. It won by having an interface that's analogous to physical photo editing and by having a bunch of the weird/fiddly things that professional need.

The best from-the-ground-up interface for a graphics program imo is that of CorelDraw, which survives as the interface to Inkscape. Rather than a craptasm of random, physical-analogue tools, you have a small number of highly functional tools giving you a wide range of options at any one point.

And yes, I'm "confusing" vector-graphics editors and bit-map editors. But imo they should be the same, the form of the image should be secondary. High film editors produce a script of editing operations to be done on the raw film. Bit-maps should also produce a sequence of operation that can be edited afterwards.

Re: Is this radical redesign of GIMP possible now?

#243
post #39
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gtk3 and Gtk4 have been ...well, gimped, and don't have many features. They've been removed in Gtk3/4 by GNOME developers because their DE does not prioritize things like keyboard entry (as compared to mouse use, see gtkfilechooserwidget.c in gtk3/4 not supporting keyboard based pasting of file paths without errors, https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/issues/5872 ). Gtk2 hasn't fallen victim to this slow erosion of…

I doubt breakages like the one you linked are deliberate, there's just a severe lack of manpower. My firsthand knowledge of such things is quite stale nowadays, but I get the impression the RH desktop group is barely on life support at this point. That GTK4 happened at all strikes me as surprising, but could be interesting long-term in terms of modernized GPU support for the toolkit attracting new usage/developers. T…

"Lack of manpower" is not a valid excuse when it comes to Gnome/GTK. If you redesign your entire codebase every other year, break everyone's workflow you cannot cry about lack of manpower. Writing software is one of the most expensive human endeavors in the world right now and FOSS community treats it like they have unlimited supply of it. If you have limited supply of software engineers then you cannot afford to redesign your UI and you have to stick to your existing code.

Re: Is this radical redesign of GIMP possible now?

#244
post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This still blows my mind a bit - yes literally they should just copy Photoshop because everyone knows how to use it. Menus are fine, any complex tool has lots of menus. I have been wishing for a photoshop-like GUI frontend for GIMP for 20 years. It's not even that far off. That sounds ungrateful, and it's not meant to be - I know this is just how it is, amazing stuff under the hood and janky interfaces I mean, linux…

> they should just copy Photoshop because everyone knows how to use it except new users. you're part of a self-selecting population. Personally I think UI experimentation is awesome, because we might end up with an interface usable on modern hardware.

But new users already don’t know how to use the UI, so why should it matter? If anything it’ll allow them to get a better idea of where to go if they land on a photoshop tutorial instead of a gimp one.

Re: Is this radical redesign of GIMP possible now?

#245
post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed! ;) I know you're joking about "ONLY", but actually, linear drop-down menus are just an edge case of pie menus with multiple items in only one direction: down. So you can also make drop-down, -up, -left, -right, and other direction menus with a decent pie menu editor, like the Blender pie menu editor add-on. Pie menus are much more useful if users can edit and create their own, especially in feature-rich exten…

i'm tweaking with fly-pie (already got 2 menus that i use a lot [there's even a dedicated key when keyboard is at mouse-layer]) & i got the blender extension too... i think there's so much potential to trackball gestures. have you thought about multiple commands at the same direction based on distance? (could be useful for setting the volume/brightness, for example)

Awesome! I'm really looking forward to Simon implementing all the features of Fly-Pie across different platforms including Window, Linux and Mac desktops. Please support his great work on Ko-Fi if you can!

https://ko-fi.com/schneegans

But until such a day as Fly-Pie-like features and editors are built into every desktop and application and browser user interface toolkit, I do think Blender also requires its own specialized WYSIWYG pie menu editor that knows about Blender's command and input systems and user interface capabilities. But it should be inspired by Simon's work on Gnome-Pie, Fly-Pie, and Kando. Also drawing 3D pie menu items and animated feedback would be really cool and useful, so you can easily make pie menus of 3D Blender content, like a tree-structured clipboards or asset libraries, or live iconic previews of the effects of editing commands!

All of these ideas could be applied to Gimp too, of course, but I've found the Blender developers to be much more open to entertaining other people's ideas and contributions about user interface design than the Gimp developers, who have been historically NIH-limited and stubborn (especially about changing the name to something less offensive to the general public). At least Blender already supports pie menus well, and changed the default mouse bindings in response to user demand, and has made huge strides in usability lately. At this point I think it would be much easier to just add a great image editor to Blender, integrated with its video editor, than try to change the minds of the Gimp developers.

I love the capabilities of the current Blender pie menu editor add-on, since it supports linear menus and user interface dialogs as well (even embedding them in pie menus, to make hybrid layouts). But it doesn't support WYSIWYG editing, or on-the-fly editing of menus in place (like HyperCard) without using a dialog in another window and using a linear list or outline to represent radial layout, which is very confusing and hard to use.

The first approach I took to pie menus was to represent pie menus as containing items, and then lay the items out in a circle, starting at an initial angle (typically up), and in a particular direction (either clockwise or counter clockwise). But that has its problems, when it comes to editing, and supporting other than one item per direction.

So I've taken a different approach of pie menus containing slices, and slices containing items. So to create a pie menu, first you define how many slices you want, then you add zero or more items to each slice, by dragging and dropping them in. So the directions do not all change around when you add or remove an item, and you can leave empty slices, and you can also put multiple items in any slice.

Each slice can be configured with various layout and tracking and drawing policies.

One useful policy is a "pull-out" slice that dislays one item at once (like a font size), which changes as you pull out, switching between items by the distance. And the items can be discrete (like a linear menu of font faces) or continuous (like an exact floating point font size).

Another policy is show all the items in the slice layed out in the slice direction, like a linear menu. That lets you make a linear menu by simply using one slice that points down, and putting multiple items in it. Of course long text labels only work well in the up and down directions, but icons work nicely along the horizontal and diagonal directions, and you can display the selected text label in the menu center when its icon is selected, as feedback.

This shows several kinds of pull out pie menus, for selecting fonts and colors:

Just the Pie Menus from All the Widgets:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOLS9I_tdKE

This shows an experiment in exaggerating the increased precision of direction that you get by moving the cursor away from the menu center:

Precision Pie Demo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0scs59va4c

>This is a demonstration of the precision pie menu under the NeWS window system. It's an experiment in exaggerating the extra precision that you get with distance as you move out further from the menu center of a pie menu. Normally the further you go from the center the more control you have over the angle, but if you want to input an exact number like an angle you might want to get it down to the a certain number. But you run out of screen space before you get enough leverage to change the number to what you want. Now what happens here is that when you poke out, it makes a flexible lever that the further out you go the more flexible it becomes, and you have much finer control over the number. So as I move around back in and out I'll poke it into a different place and just come out further to get a lot of leverage and dial exactly the number I want. So here's what happens when you go around to the other side. *POP* And as you get nearer it gets less and less flexible. Generally you kind of eyeball it and then get it exact like 93: well there's 93, or 273: there's 273.

Re: Is this radical redesign of GIMP possible now?

#246
post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This still blows my mind a bit - yes literally they should just copy Photoshop because everyone knows how to use it. Menus are fine, any complex tool has lots of menus. I have been wishing for a photoshop-like GUI frontend for GIMP for 20 years. It's not even that far off. That sounds ungrateful, and it's not meant to be - I know this is just how it is, amazing stuff under the hood and janky interfaces I mean, linux…

> they should just copy Photoshop because everyone knows how to use it except new users. you're part of a self-selecting population. Personally I think UI experimentation is awesome, because we might end up with an interface usable on modern hardware.

I don't mean clone, I mean copy the good ideas the obvious ones like docking panels re-arrange the menu a bit. If this had happened years ago I think GIMP would have become more popular with a more accessible interface. Hamburger menus are from the devil. Be good

Re: Is this radical redesign of GIMP possible now?

#247
post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i'm tweaking with fly-pie (already got 2 menus that i use a lot [there's even a dedicated key when keyboard is at mouse-layer]) & i got the blender extension too... i think there's so much potential to trackball gestures. have you thought about multiple commands at the same direction based on distance? (could be useful for setting the volume/brightness, for example)

Awesome! I'm really looking forward to Simon implementing all the features of Fly-Pie across different platforms including Window, Linux and Mac desktops. Please support his great work on Ko-Fi if you can! https://ko-fi.com/schneegans But until such a day as Fly-Pie-like features and editors are built into every desktop and application and browser user interface toolkit, I do think Blender also requires its own speci…

> Gimp developers, who have been historically NIH-limited and stubborn (especially about changing the name to something less offensive to the general public)

first thing that pops is a phrase of some biologist regards why evolution made plants green and not blue (physically, blue can absorb way more energy from the sun)... SPOILER: because makes the plantae organisms way more stable rather than performant (which opens up less windows for failings regards evolution). i use Gimp for digital collages, dead simple pixel-art and even composing a poem book for my beloved one! and that tool if it isn't perfect for the job, is probably about adjusting expectations ¶ why society can't re-signify a offensive word?

we have Krita (i never used) too... Gimp with its core open (viva the GNU license)... who knows how a bunch of hackers doing stuff for free feel when some fancy hipster smelling proprietary apple juice appears suggesting UX re-write (just in case i didn't even read the blog) based on what the rotten industry ⟨most of the time, rot⟩ wants! --cheers to a more slow paced and thoughtful world, by the way

i think pie-menus also should add a keyboard navigation. for me they are more than just controlling stuff with the pointer (interesting mailing list read about what Apple came after a research around 30 million of USD on UX: https://www.asktog.com/TOI/toi06KeyboardVMouse1.html ※ SPOILER: the mouse wins), but, again, for me radial-menus are much more than using the pointer but rather a sweet visualization, too.

different keys on hold for different functions when selecting a pie-menu direction etc. the sky isn't the limit anymore - also some thoughtful consideration where the mouse should be transported (if at all) when opening certain menus?

Re: Is this radical redesign of GIMP possible now?

#248
post #150
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GIMP is a power user tool, like Photoshop, or Excel, or a Bloomberg terminal. If you don't need all that, Canva or the photo editor on your phone will offer a simpler UI.

No "power user" is touching GIMP with a ten foot pole.

I use GIMP features that the basic apps don't have, therefore I'm a GIMP power user.

Re: Is this radical redesign of GIMP possible now?

#249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GIMP has one of the best user interfaces of all community driven open source software. I frankly can't think of any that are better, now that Firefox followed Chrome in hiding all its most important features.

The UI to Photoshop is horrific (and unbelievably old and crufty, though not as bad as Illustrator.) I used to be convinced that the reason people think it's reasonable is Stockholm Syndrome. Now I'm convinced it's because most Photoshop users only ever use Photoshop/Illustrator/InDesign, and simply aren't familiar with other software. It's bizarre that a search bar that unfolds a vertical menubar when highlighted bu…

I'll admit I'm a novice with Photoshop, I've never used it for more than a moderately complex task. Usually simple cuts and meme making type stuff. I also once designed a poster that required me to make a vector background and arrange some ripped svg elements from a old swf file.

Every time I try GIMP it's a nightmare. Even the simplest thing usually makes me find a video to explain where to find it. Cutting, pasting and layer management is a pain. For super simple stuff I use Pinta and anything marginally complex I use photoshop and it's always felt easy.

I know that's hardly scientific but I've always seen photoshops interface as good.

Re: Is this radical redesign of GIMP possible now?

#250
post #14

Universal search in UI is cool, and I’m all for it, but it shouldn’t be the only/primary way of accessing tools as tool discoverability is very low. The author tries to deal with this by putting the a menu next to a search bar and putting hints in the bottom menu (which I don’t think would really work here, as raster tools are less selection-specific than 3D tools). Search fixes the speed-of-access issue, but doesn’t…

Universal UI search is great, and at this point it should be present in all but the simplest applications. I first saw it introduced in Google Docs, and it's precisely for things you suspect exist, but it's not even remotely clear which menu, submenu, or dialog it's in. (Apple OS Settings is another great example of it.) E.g., you want to apply a hanging indent in Docs? Just type "hanging" into the menu search, and i…

On Linux, Plasma users can do this in KDE apps by hitting CTRL+ALT+I to launch the Command Bar.

Menus in Qt and GTK apps can be exported over D-Bus, allowing for desktop environments, or 3rd party HUDs, to implement menu search bars, as well.

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