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KDE Plasma 6.0 Is Enabling Wayland by Default

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Re: KDE Plasma 6.0 Is Enabling Wayland by Default

#131

Post by viraptor »

TillE wrote: post #86
j1elo wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm surprised they didn't go to a more clever solution such as "start loading it as soon as the most core components have already loaded, and CPU usage falls below 30% during 3 to 5 consecutive seconds". That'd seem to me like a sweet spot between what was before (making the whole system startup slower), and what you mention will be now (probably making the first search to load noticeably slower).

With modern hardware and OSes the ideal answer is typically to run non-essential tasks exclusively on efficiency cores. So you leave the performance cores free to handle stuff that the user immediately cares about.

If anyone wants to play with that, the "uclamp" interface is the "nice" that affects the scheduler / placement / energy use. Pipewire got a patch recently to keep the requested power low https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/pipewire/pipewire/-/commit/70...

Re: KDE Plasma 6.0 Is Enabling Wayland by Default

#132

Post by rendaw »

vlovich123 wrote: post #90

I enabled wayland recently and there’s been a lot of annoyances to the point that I wonder why I bother considering X11 works without these issues. For example: * Chrome needs a bunch of extra flags to launch in Wayland mode * Firefox needs extra flags to launch in Wayland mode * Xwayland is just broken on Nvidia with both sides refusing to compromise (implicit vs explicit synchronization - Nvidia refuses to add impl…

I try to test my system setups with qemu, but I cannot for the life of me figure out which combination of whats I need to get wayland to run there. There's apparently two? framebuffer implementations which work with none of the desktops I want to use. All the documentation points to other projects that should be documenting X or Y, but don't.

Re: KDE Plasma 6.0 Is Enabling Wayland by Default

#133

Post by sidkshatriya »

vlovich123 wrote: post #123
sidkshatriya wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's possible some of these things are really distro+hw related, but for the sake of argument: > * Chrome needs a bunch of extra flags to launch in Wayland mode I'd rather have to worry about adding a few extra flags than worry about X11. X11 is overcomplicated, over-engineered, barely maintained, is apparently broken from a security angle, ancient... Till today I have found X11 configuration one of the toughest thin…

> Till today I have found X11 configuration one of the toughest things in Linux. I'd rather google for some wayland specific flags than worry about X11. My experience here is that this used to be true more than ten years ago. At some point in between that though X11 managed to get to 0 config. At least, I installed Arch & didn't have to touch the X config at all and things just worked (on NVidia at least). I'm not tr…

> Nvidia is stepping up on their side though - I don't see the same from Wayland/XWayland camp

Genuinely curious -- what stepping up should happen from Wayland/XWayland ? Intel and AMD seem to work well on it so is it because they have some accepted some ugly hacks that Nvidia are not willing to do ? Something else ?

Re: KDE Plasma 6.0 Is Enabling Wayland by Default

#134

Post by patrakov »

Conscat wrote: post #77
IshKebab wrote: post #19

Does screen capture actually work reliably yet? I hope they leave X11 as an option until it does.

It does not in the general case. For KDE, it works for some programs, but not all of the common ones including Discord.

There is a project to fix this.

https://blog.davidedmundson.co.uk/blog/xwaylandvideobridge/

https://invent.kde.org/system/xwaylandvideobridge

Re: KDE Plasma 6.0 Is Enabling Wayland by Default

#135

Post by beebeepka »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #113
flohofwoe wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Vulkan unlike OpenGL is also quite new. Vulkan is 7 years old by now. That's the same time span between Direct3D1 (1995) and Direct3D9 (2002). Wayland is 15 years old now btw. 7 and 15 years should be more than enough time to create stable and robust software libraries.

I don't wholly disagree with your conclusion, but it's worth considering some context. Direct3D versions 1 – 9 were indeed released at a rapid pace, more than one per year on average. However, it took a whole five years before D3D9 was superseded by D3D10, and subsequent releases have also been relatively slow. Direct3D 12 is eight years old, even older than Vulkan. However, it still feels to me like a "new" API, I t…

Isn't dx12 a lower level API? Not nearly as accessible as dx/opengl. I guess not everyone in the game industry has the ability to just switch because codebases are messy, "things are already working", and there not being much to gain but performance.

Deus Ex: Mankind Divided, for example, would often crash on me under dx12, until I switched to dx11. Not everyone is id Software or Epic.

Re: KDE Plasma 6.0 Is Enabling Wayland by Default

#136

Post by hotnfresh »

skinkestek wrote: post #122
brabel wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use KDE and MacOS on different laptops. Even though I like KDE , I find that compared to MacOS, KDE is the one that comes out a bit amateurish... the attention to detail in the MacOS UI is just amazing. Am I missing something?? How is KDE better (it really feels much more raw to me, but being on Linux I don't really expect much more)?

> the attention to detail in the MacOS UI is just amazing. Please feel free to answer these questions (I think I already know the answer so this is to illustrate a point, but I will also be happy to learn a better way): 1. How do you cut and paste something on a Mac using the keyboard? 2. How do you cut a file in one folder and paste it into another in Finder using the keyboard? 3. How are you supposed to know the an…

Cutting stuff in word processors or content areas, and moving files, are two different operations that behave the same approximately nowhere, and it’s not obvious that they should share the same commands. Digging back into the distant past when I first encountered this on Win 95 (I don’t think I knew about it on 3.1?) it was indeed confusing, though of course now it seems OK, because I got used to it.

The example of whether to use the same command for ready-a-file-to-perhaps-move-but-leave-it-otherwise as for definitely-remove-this-thing-now-and-maybe-put-it-somewhere-else is more a matter of taste than one or the other representing better attention to detail.

Re: KDE Plasma 6.0 Is Enabling Wayland by Default

#137

Post by Wowfunhappy »

skinkestek wrote: post #122
brabel wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use KDE and MacOS on different laptops. Even though I like KDE , I find that compared to MacOS, KDE is the one that comes out a bit amateurish... the attention to detail in the MacOS UI is just amazing. Am I missing something?? How is KDE better (it really feels much more raw to me, but being on Linux I don't really expect much more)?

> the attention to detail in the MacOS UI is just amazing. Please feel free to answer these questions (I think I already know the answer so this is to illustrate a point, but I will also be happy to learn a better way): 1. How do you cut and paste something on a Mac using the keyboard? 2. How do you cut a file in one folder and paste it into another in Finder using the keyboard? 3. How are you supposed to know the an…

1. By pressing cmd+x and cmd+v

2. You don't.

I realize that's not a very satisfying answer, but it's quite obviously a conscious UX choice, and IMO not a bad one. The problem is, where does the file go in between the time you cut and you paste? If you accidentally copy something else to your clipboard, do you loose the entire file? Does the file appear in the Trash or is it deleted perminently?

You can use cmd+c and then cmd+alt+v to copy a file to your clipboard and then move it to a different directory, but moving is distinct from cutting in that it's a synchronous operation. There is no in between point where your file is lost in the ether.

3. Assuming we're referring to "how do you move a file with the keyboard", you open the "edit" menu in Finder's global menu bar, then hold down "alt", at which point "paste" will change to "move item here".

I agree "hold down option" is not particularly discoverable. However, it's a standard across all of macOS for enabling alternative options. For example, holding down alt will also change "Minimize" to "Minimize All", and "Quit" to "Quit and Keep Windows" (or "Quit and don't keep Windows" depending on your default preference). Once you know this basic idea, it's consistent.

4. To my knowledge this works in all apps that use Carbon/Cocoa. If apps reimplement these views and disregard Apple's design guidelines, what is Apple supposed to do?

P.S. I think modern macOS is a poorly thought out mess but I love how it was a decade ago (up to OS X 10.9).

Re: KDE Plasma 6.0 Is Enabling Wayland by Default

#138

Post by sbuk »

skinkestek wrote: post #122
brabel wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use KDE and MacOS on different laptops. Even though I like KDE , I find that compared to MacOS, KDE is the one that comes out a bit amateurish... the attention to detail in the MacOS UI is just amazing. Am I missing something?? How is KDE better (it really feels much more raw to me, but being on Linux I don't really expect much more)?

> the attention to detail in the MacOS UI is just amazing. Please feel free to answer these questions (I think I already know the answer so this is to illustrate a point, but I will also be happy to learn a better way): 1. How do you cut and paste something on a Mac using the keyboard? 2. How do you cut a file in one folder and paste it into another in Finder using the keyboard? 3. How are you supposed to know the an…

The cmd+x/c/v keyboard shortcuts have been around much longer than the ctrl+x/c/v equivalents - copied by Microsoft in Windows 3.0; it was all CUA previous to that.

1. So to cut in applications (or anywhere anything is selectable other than Finder), it's cmd+x, as it has been since the early '80s; likewise, paste is cmd+v

2. In Finder, you'd use cmd+c to copy the file, cmd+v to paste a copy and cmd+opt+v to move the file. This was introduced, I think, in Lion (OS X 10.9).

3. Erm, using the menu bar to begin with? Reading the built-in help? Searching the internet? How do you learn it in Windows and/or any other $desktop or $wm?

4. *Emacs keybindings work in most places in macOS, and they have since the first beta of OS X.

Edit: *most...

Re: KDE Plasma 6.0 Is Enabling Wayland by Default

#139

Post by tormeh »

beebeepka wrote: post #130
tormeh wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using Wayland on NixOS with AMD GPU. I have done exactly nothing to make Wayland work and it has none of this bugs.

But you don't have rtx, peasant! Seriously though, it's been a while since I've had serious issues with AMD cards on Linux. I was very annoyed with the state of my rx5700 when it first launched back in 2019. We've come a long way

> But you don't have rtx, peasant! [j/k]

On Linux it's basically the opposite now. Nvidia should basically be seen as unsupported, which to be clear is 100% Nvidia's fault.

Re: KDE Plasma 6.0 Is Enabling Wayland by Default

#140

Post by mardifoufs »

beebeepka wrote: post #128
vlovich123 wrote: post #90

I enabled wayland recently and there’s been a lot of annoyances to the point that I wonder why I bother considering X11 works without these issues. For example: * Chrome needs a bunch of extra flags to launch in Wayland mode * Firefox needs extra flags to launch in Wayland mode * Xwayland is just broken on Nvidia with both sides refusing to compromise (implicit vs explicit synchronization - Nvidia refuses to add impl…

Wow, is this what the Nvidia Linux experience is like these days? Is it even worth it anymore?

Nvidia, even on Wayland since the latest 545 driver, works just fine if you use the proprietary drivers.
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